Posted on 02/18/2004 3:14:41 PM PST by go_tom
Hardly, that fact was PART of my unfounded rant. It just so happens to be the same old (R)nold supporters that keep going too. This recall fight is still going and its wrong, on both sides.
I replied in KIND and you use it as an example of me being nasty?
Hold it now, you aren't listening or I'm just not being clear enough;That wasn't what I was critical of as being nasty at all. Its perfectly acceptable to say you aren't going to hold you breath hoping someone figures out something you are pointing out to them. I'd even go so far as to say that its understandable for you to be nasty to the Tombots who are nasty to you, what is not is when you claim that nastiness is wrong--after being nasty yourself. What I called "nasty" was when you compared Tombots to vicous DU posters, accusing them of being like Democrats. You know full well that isn't nice to those that would be reading FR who hate the DUmmies, those are fighting words to a conservative.
That would be ridiculous since most of them are terrific folks with fantastic values and are a joy to work with on this side of the political fence.
Fantastic. Realizing that, you have to be the grownup and not continue this pointless, futile, counterproductive fight against the Tombots. While you may be able to distinguish between the minority of them that are nasty vs the rest that you like...EVERY supporter of his is offended when you go after them. Don't forget, the war is over, this thread doesn't even mention the Gov in anyway, but the nastiness...from both sides has gone so over the edge that you and Tempest feel compelled to post on it, fighting the last war like an old general.
I understand many of them have sour grapes about losing the recall, but you have to see it from their perspective, every bad thing that happens to CA they feel more frustrated. You were right when you said that the "I told you so's" come from them, that is how I meant to say it. That's precisely what you have to ignore. They are going to be saying that about the Gov if he raises taxes, if he can't come up with a way to resolve the Gay thing, if the borders aren't addressed. They'll crow, but you have to let it go, its better that way. I know that sucks because you honestly believe in him and want him to be respected, but you are going to have to be bigger about this for the overall good. The so called Tombots are people of principle, by in large, uncompromising in fact. I totally reject the quote "conservative" enquote labeling, they could be called too conservative because they don't make concessions. You'll NEVER get them to accept those issues, just as you won't get them to accept that they are too vicious, and you don't want them to. You have to let them vent about such topics, that is how we conservatives get our politicians to act on our behalf, not excusing everything they do-then they take us for granted. Its healthy that the Tombots attack the Gov, when appropriate, its not going to threaten his power no matter HOW vicious it were to ever get on FR.
What is not healthy is the way this has gotten so embittered that those who believed that compromising with the Republican who can win vs the one they agree with drives everyone to endlessly attack eachother whenever an actual conservative issue comes up. We're never going to get anywhere with the way we've handled this thing Tam. I'll tell you the truth, I've given up. I poke around the local news and here now and again, but for the most part I have no hope for the CA GOP long term and am bored with FR. We're polarized because of this, which the ones who want to win with Arnold actually ATTACKING the conservative issues the McClintock campaign centered around because of old scores, this is a tragedy because we agree on the issues, but we can't anymore because of pride.
The point is, unless both sides can get past their bitterness, unless we can understand we have to stop needlessly dividing ourselves, CA conservatism is absolutely doomed.
If someone is attacked first for any reason, they have the right to slam back. When I talk about "nasty" posters and freepers acting like "Democrats", I'm referring to the same handful of juveniles making vicious sweeping statements against "Rhinold" supporters or the thousand variations of this. The attacks from some freepers against Schwarzenegger or the people who supported him as the most rightward candidate haven't stopped for a SECOND.
Yes, it's a tragedy for the CA GOP on several levels. I won't get into that, however, it would be jumping from the frying pan into the fire ;-) It does seem, however, that many of these same individuals would be more than happy to see the GOP fail entirely if it meant that a third party would gain strength from it way down the road. That's not a partner in politics, THAT is an opponent. We have people on both the RIGHT and the LEFT rooting for Arnold to fail in a spectacular manner... sorry, but something is really wrong with that picture.
it will end up being a whole lot of nothing.
It also may not, and for me that's the bigger concern. As I see it, the potential damage homosexual marriage will cause on our country and our youth is too high, much too high. And the possibility of what you describe above seems more far fetched.
O'Reilly interviewed ex-Gov. Pete Wilson, not Senator McClintock on FNC tonight.
I, too, think this stunt of homsoexual marriage will do more harm than they realize.
I love that expression! ;o)
Why should it be seperated? You were more right before, its just "nasty" and that's all that is important.
If someone is attacked first for any reason, they have the right to slam back.
Like I said before, I understand that sentiment, however, that hypotheical person has absolutely no right to complain about said "nastiness" ;-)
The attacks from some freepers against Schwarzenegger or the people who supported him as the most rightward candidate haven't stopped for a SECOND.
Yup. As I told you it would. Ready for another prophesy? If the most rightward candidate moves leftward it will get much much worse.
Yes, it's a tragedy for the CA GOP on several levels. I won't get into that
You should get into that, that is the most important thing that anyone on here can talk about. Because of the victory, you don't yet see how perilous that has left the CA GOP. I'll explain that in a bit.
It does seem, however, that many of these same individuals would be more than happy to see the GOP fail entirely if it meant that a third party would gain strength from it way down the road.
Baaaa humbug. A 3rd party will never gain enough strength to win dog catcher. Look how left San Fran is, and they couldn't even elect a Green. Its never going to happen, and more importantly, I reject your assertion that "Tombots" are 3rd party types, because I know them. I know them well, they found someone in Tom that finally said what they knew was right, and he said it in factual, specific, and unconditional prose, and they actually believed in a politician for once. They locked onto that and wouldn't let go. Who we are talking about here are conservatives, who based on the policies that Arnold has and has not taken on social issues, spending cuts, immigration (I mean, you have to admit the list does go on) view him, rightward or not, as unsupportable. I am not trying to say that you were wrong, or that he is a bad Gov, we disagree on the rightward strategy-that's all. All I'm am trying to say to you is that this is where they are coming from; they view him as another liability and are deeply troubled by him and the rise of his supporters.
That's not a partner in politics, THAT is an opponent.
You just aren't getting the point here. You have to think about the trap you are putting yourself in. Politics is made of of coalitions, strained at times, but moving towards a common goal. You are forgetting, you won! You are the victors, and with that comes responsibility. You can't squeeze blood from a turnip, and there is nothing more you can get out of the McClintock supporters, end of story. Like I keep telling you, you HAVE to be more mature about this and stop looking to be outraged. You have more to barter with, having power, you can let these little people rant, they can't do anything, but if you seek to silence them "for the good of the party" not only will you fail, you risk something you haven't even considered; party apathy. I speak from experience here, I'm not alone in no longer believing in the CA GOP. Haven't you noticed that the strategy of shushing these people has been a spectacular FAILURE on one thread after another? Didn't you ever wonder why? Its not because you said it the wrong way, its that these people will never accept what they believe to be liberal policy! As I said before, you don't want them to long term, these are great soldiers in the conservative cause, you and all of those who care about Arnold need to defend his policy when you can, and ignore the petty stuff about him personally because they will never yield to what they consider to be a Democrat. Don't forget, the Tombots view you as a sellout and a traitor, I'm not saying that is at all fair, right, or true, but that's the unfortunate reality and you need to understand how you are talking to a wall with them. Now the Tombots and the (R)nold Groupies have much in common issue wise, and need eachother to win. In fact, they cannot win another election in CA without eachother. I understand he got about 50% of the vote, again I'll explain that in a bit.
We have people on both the RIGHT and the LEFT rooting for Arnold to fail in a spectacular manner... sorry, but something is really wrong with that picture.
Well I am sorry to be the one to have to break this to you, but you were warned about that before the election, that is moderate triangulation politics. The Tombots are not dullards, they were so "nasty" because they have seen this before and didn't want it to happen when they had such a good candidate running. If Arnold moves center-left, the very Left papers and politicians of this state will not appreciate him, and the conservatives will seeth with anger. The media will help destroy him just as they did national to Bush 41. If he moves center-right, some conservatives will suport him but not that passionately, and the Left will go after him mercilessly. The point that has been made is that there is no winning in the center in CA. Incendentally, I saw a story on Drudge about how he is promising huge cuts in the bonds fail, if that happens I PROMISE you that 90% of the Tombots would CHEER if he did. Its his only way out really. I really hope he does!
So why am I saying that we can't win another election without eachother? Because Arnold had no political baggage, and was running against THE MOST UNPOPULAR POLITICIAN IN THE HISTORY OF POLLING. Also, he was vague in policy, while being a charming, likeable actor from movies we all liked. He was probably my favorite actor. In the next election you will see things get back to normal, and that means without the Tombots, the Demos will win hands down in 06. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm saying that is a disaster that must be prevented.
I hope now you appreciate more of what this conflict really means, the DUmmies, by the way, have to be laughing at the "nastiness" because they know what it means for 06. If you have any, ANY sway with Tempest and the others, you must try to reason with them to understand all of this before its too late. Lord knows I'm not around here much anymore, the only reason I come on here is to defend Mel Gibson, I just saw McClintock's name in the thread and checked it out. Its actually odd that we would talk about this. The truth is that most of the Tombots aren't going to be as levelheaded about this and if he moves leftward and the two sides can't find an understanding now, they will be permanently splintered. You guys have to be the grownups about this and find a way to work with them.
Oh well that makes perfect sense then. For what possible reason have you designated yourself for such a task other than to be needlessly confrontational and combative? Let the little delusional cheerleaders dream of the slaying, if that is what they are doing, what does it have to do with anything, other than old scores to settle?
Are you suggesting that you engage in picking these fights because you care about the cheerleaders? As I tried to explain to the other hyperdefensive one, the carping against Arnold is necessary for the right to have any clout in CA politics. I read that he wants the marriages to stop. I say BRAVO. If your guy does things rightward and the evil Tombots are critical, I will join you in fighting them, but if he appears to be moving left, and you try to impune them, "for the good of the party", you're going to continue to fail.
You are a winner, try to be a mature one. I have a hope that your guy has cleverly planned for the Props to fail so that he can slash spending. Lets all try to work together for what we want, "for the good of the party".
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.