Guard, Reserves Have History Spotty Record-Keeping: Gaps Such as Those in Bush Documents Are Common

Washington Post ^ | 2.15.04

[ambrose]

Guard, Reserves Have History of Spotty Record-Keeping Gaps Such as Those in Bush Documents Are Common; Most Files Contain Omissions, Official Says

By Bradley Graham

Washington Post Staff Writer

Sunday, February 15, 2004; Page A10

The controversy over President Bush's time in the Air National Guard has exposed one not-so-secret aspect of the Guard's record-keeping: It has been full of gaps and inaccuracies for years.

Contrary to the military's general image of orderliness and discipline, the process of documenting the service of Guard members and reservists has long suffered from disorder and incompleteness, according to people both inside and outside the Pentagon familiar with the records system.

[Paleo Conservative]

I would think thirty year old records may be unreliable. At work we discard everything after about ten years.

[vetvetdoug]

When I was in the Guard and Reserves, I kept a copy of all of my drills and points because the possibility of the company clerk and the record depository in St. Louis losing them was very real.

[montag813]

Guard, Reserves Have History Spotty Record-Keeping: Gaps Such as Those in Bush Documents Are Common

NOW the media tells us it was all much ado about nothing, after they have suceeded in trimming Bush's approval rating by 5-10 points. "Mission Accomplished"

[Ruth A.]

NOW the media tells us it was all much ado about nothing, after they have suceeded in trimming Bush's approval rating by 5-10 points. "Mission Accomplished"

That's their MO. Remember the "I have a scream" response a couple of weeks later: Oh, we overdid it and a special mike was used.

[God luvs America]

NOW the media tells us it was all much ado about nothing, after they have succeeded in trimming Bush's approval rating by 5-10 points. "Mission Accomplished"

Of course..know that they've stirred the sh!t pot enough they must cover their asses....this way when people cry out how this was all a liberal conspiracy the liberal medium WP can say, "well we did let people know the Guard's record keeping is spotty"....what a crock!

[CedarDave]

Have you read the story? It's the other way around, according to the Compost. It talks about "ghost" guard members who were listed as attending drills when they might have been missing for months. More grist for the RATS mill to grind:

Further, the accuracy of some of the submitted information has come into question because of commanders' efforts over the years to exaggerate membership figures. In these cases, Guard members who have stopped going to monthly drills have nonetheless remained on unit rosters to ensure no reduction in federal funding for the units. An investigation in 2001 by USA Today found that the percentage of such "ghost soldiers" ran as high as 20 percent in some units. A subsequent report by the congressional General Accounting Office confirmed that Guard officers had inflated troop levels in some instances and filed false reports, which then became the basis for funding requests to Congress.

[ambrose]

They played both angles.

[DestroytheDemocrats]

"At work we discard everything after about ten years."

The whole thing is totally ridiculous. Bush can't help if his records have gaps in them. What is the implication of the gap in the records? That someone is hiding something? That there is some shadowy conspiracy? That someone tampered with the records? Who? When? Why? At whose direction? They don't know. It is NOT a question of Bush's credibility anymore. It is a question of the press chasing some kind of shadowy, unlikely conspiracy that they cannot even articulate. After 400 pages and an honorable discharge, the press does not have the honesty to admit they were chasing stories they made up in their empty heads. I wonder how many of them care that the polls show 2/3 of the public think the the AWOL story is not a legitimate issue. They live in their own tinly little self important bubble staring at their own navels.

[ApplegateRanch]

Reserve? Guard? Why stop there?

My oldest brother served as an Army Combat Engineer in the Korean War, after being DRAFTED away from the Naval Reserve, which had "lost his records".

He was wounded and invalided back State-side, after spending 3 months in a hospital in Japan. It took him THIRTY YEARS +/- for the Army to find the records corroborating that they owed him several months combat pay.

Records were (are?) lost, maimed, destroyed, incompletely filled out, etc. all the time.

These news types, most of whom have never served, find no problem with 'missing records' when it is a WWII Vet finally having the paperwork being found so he (or sadly, his family)can receive the medals he earned.

Double standards? The Press? Oh, no. Never!
What? Never?!?
Well...hardly ever!

[js1138]

Well Duh. When I separated from activity, the Army had lost track of 30 days of leave. My former commander simply hadn't reported it.

[ApplegateRanch]

(See my note above about my brother, also on this thread.)

I do NOT have a DD214, because my Navy Reserve records (63-65; Medical Under Honorable Conditions, in 65) were destroyed by a fire at the Repository, along with how many others???. Instead, I have a different piece of paper to go with my Discharge Certificate. Guess it is a good thing I'm not in the White House!

[Lion Den Dan]

Even the regular Army record keeping can leave something to be desired. If you retired or worse, left the military in the late 70s or early 80s and try to get some compensation or an adjustment to a disability, you may find many of your records are missing.

I think the system does better today as soldiers continually make personal checks of their records and get corrections made on an ongoing basis. In my own 201 file, I am not credited with nearly 9 months of Platoon Sergeant time that I performed. It made no difference to me when I left the Army but would that make me a liar and a fraud if I claimed it? Members of the platoon are still around and would vouch for my claim but the record does not show it.

[dleach]

I think it would be useful if every retired military person who has lost or missing records should contact as many of the media to let them know to see if there is a conspiracy with their records ;-)...

but seriously, all of you should...

[pawdoggie]

You know, another thing that gets lost in the shuffle is that there were a lot of guys during the Vietnam War (including draftees) who ended up serving in Germany or Panama or Japan or Alaska or any place other than Vietnam. I wonder what the Democrats would have us make of their service? If one of those folks were to run for office, would the Democrats belittle their service because they were only training for WW III (as was Lt Bush), or would they demand to see their service records to insure that they didn't use "influence" to get out of being assigned to Vietnam?

[meenie]

The fire in the depository at St. Louis is a ready excuse to deny vets disability pay and medical care. I was lucky enough to have my stay confirmed by the hospital in Stuttgart, Germany.

[js1138]

You know, another thing that gets lost in the shuffle is that there were a lot of guys during the Vietnam War (including draftees) who ended up serving in Germany or Panama or Japan or Alaska or any place other than Vietnam.

That's true. I worked my butt off to get one of these plum assignments, but got Vietnam instead. It was just the luck of the draw. Even after arriving in Vietnam your original orders meant nothing. You went to a replacement company for assignment. Even this assignment meant little. The buildup in 1967-68 was so fast and so intense that no one knew what was going on.

Actually it wasn't as fast as the Gulf wars, but LBJ was in charge, and everything was screwed up.

[passionfruit]

The Reserves have sure had a hard time with recordkeeping. When I served they sent me to a technical school, and lost records showing that I ever attended. This effected the active duty time that appeared on my DD214, asnd also deprived me of college credits earned. Even when I have sent them copies of my certificate received for graduating the course, they still won't correct my record. I can see why W is having a tough time.

[optik_b]

"Contrary to the military's general image of orderliness and discipline, the process of documenting the service of Guard members and reservists has long suffered from disorder and incompleteness, according to people both inside and outside the Pentagon familiar with the records system. "

I agree with this statement. Everyone I've known in the military has had some problem with the beauracracy and has told me there is problems with the records. In fact one of them who is a General told me it is important to maintain your records and check on them because of mishaps than can occur in the system.

This whole thing is a non-issue.

[Fury]

The whole thing is totally ridiculous. Bush can't help if his records have gaps in them. What is the implication of the gap in the records? That someone is hiding something? That there is some shadowy conspiracy? That someone tampered with the records? Who? When? Why? At whose direction? They don't know. It is NOT a question of Bush's credibility anymore. It is a question of the press chasing some kind of shadowy, unlikely conspiracy that they cannot even articulate. After 400 pages and an honorable discharge, the press does not have the honesty to admit they were chasing stories they made up in their empty heads. I wonder how many of them care that the polls show 2/3 of the public think the the AWOL story is not a legitimate issue. They live in their own tinly little self important bubble staring at their own navels.

You should hear my liberal, eco-nazi co-worker. This is the same guy that is proud to say he was ready to run to Canada if he was drafted. He says that if Bush is going to send soldiers to their deaths, that Bush needs to have military service that is exemplary. I've heard all the claims of Bush getting preferential treatment, being in a "champagne unit" while in the Guard, Bush being AWOL, etc, etc.

President Bush could have been in Vietnam checking for mines with a sledgehammer and then the issue would have been something else.

This all boils down to the ABB factor. I know several Dems in the area I live who can't stand Kerry, but I bet they stil vote for him.