Requesting advice on a "store security" issue. (first Vanity in over a year, cut me a little slack?)

Self | Self

[Stu Cohen]

Okay, I am in a big hurry for a birthday party and I run into a large consumer electronics store today to make a last minute purchase. I know I’m short for time, so I get the first item that looks like it will be acceptable (I usually comparison shop a lot). I quickly take the item to a cash register, and pay for it.

I head for the door, hoping that traffic is light since I have about 15 minutes to get to the party. What is at the door? A HUGE line, about 15-20 people long. Apparently, nobody can leave the store without having their bags checked against their receipts … and the doorman decides that they haven’t stolen anything.

For the record, they also had those “anti-theft” detectors at the door, so presumably someone would set it off had they stolen something.

Now, this particular doorman was not very fast. He looked at every item on everyone’s receipt, and put some kind of highlight mark next to each one. It literally would have taken me 20 minutes to exit the store.

So, I simply head out the door, past the doorman. I did not set off the theft detector … but he chases me out to the parking lot anyway and says “you can’t leave”.

I say, “I can leave. I just did leave. You have no legal basis to prevent me from leaving the store when I feel like it”.

He says, “we reserve the right to check all packages”.

I say, “what happens if I refuse to let you check my package”.

He says, “we reserve the right to deny you entry into the store”.

I say “Great! I’m not in the store and I don’t want to go into the store, so we have no problem”

He says, “get back in line so we can check your packages”.

I say, “ I don’t have time, and I don’t have to. I am now outside the store, everything I have in my bag is owned by me, and I have the receipts to prove it. Unless you have probable cause that I have stolen something then you cannot force me to stay in your store for 20 minutes with MY property. I paid for it. I now own it. It’s mine.”

He says “I’m calling the cops”.

I say “Go ahead”.

I leave.

He walks back to the store in a huff.

I’ve no idea if he called anybody. I somewhat doubt it since nobody witnessed any type of crime being committed.

Now, my question to you freepers who may have an inkling as to what the law is:

Can you be forced to stand in a line after you have paid for goods before you can leave a store? Does the fact that you have purchased something give the store the right to forbid you to leave? What if the line is 10 minutes long, 20 minutes long, an hour long? Are you legally obligated to stay in the store to prove that you have no stolen anything? Aren’t you free to leave when you feel like it, provided that you own all of the merchandise on your person?

I realize that we all usually concede to this “theft checks” as a courtesy, and we usually leave our bags in the front when we enter a store. Sure, if you don’t check your bag they can deny you entry or ask you to leave, but barring someone witnessing you stealing something, can they actively prevent you from leaving? What if you get a call on your cell phone that your wife is in labor or that the dog ran away? You can’t sprint out the door headed for home unless minimum wage guy at the door gives you the green light? You have to drop all your bags with all your possessions inside the store in order to leave (you couldn’t put something in your pocket?).

Correct me if I’m wrong, but detention requires affirmative probable cause, and standing in line to have your bag inspected is simply a courtesy that we have all become accustomed to, and are willing to do if it is done with reasonable speed … but we are in no way required by law to do this.

I didn’t steal anything. I committed no crime. From what I understand, your only legal obligation on private property is to leave when ordered. You can’t be ordered onto private property to satisfy someone’s curiosity or to prove your innocence.

Must I stand in line to prove my innocence before being able to leave a store, or is this one of those “myth requirements” that eventually works it’s way into the American Psyche as being a law by default … simply because most everyone agrees to do it? Aren’t we free to leave when we wish?

Can any armchair (or real) lawyers out there give me the scoop on this "company policy"?

Needless to say, I am not shopping there again - but what does the law say about this practice?

[mcg1969]

My suspicion is that they can't nail you for doing anything wrong here. The worst they can do to you is request that you not enter the store again---and if you do, they can nail you for trespassing. I look forward to hearing other people's takes on this.

[marktwain]

I believe you are correct in saying that it is a "myth requirement".

[GottaLuvAkitas1]

You have nothing to worry about since they did not *post this upon entry*. I'd go back and do it again just so I could tell them to bite me.

[Drango]

Can't speak to the law...but I walk right past the door checkers at Fry's. Did it today in fact.

[dirtboy]

First question - what state did this happen in?

[evolved_rage]

I'm not a lawyer, but I play one on TV. Shoplifting usually requires a witness. I've known a retired store detective for years, and whenever they went to court, it always came down to "I saw them hide X in their pocket". Since you did not steal anything, nor is their any evidence you stole, and no witnesses, I'd say they are SOL if they do call the cops.

[Khurkris]

Quit shopping at FRY'S.

[mystery-ak]

I'd like to know the answer too...I waited several minutes at Sam's yesterday while they checked peoples carts...I had a box of cupcakes..

[PackerBoy]

Lawyer here: I believe that you were within your rights to leave. The store probably could have been sued for false imprisonment (and assault and battery) if they detained you by use of physical force to search you or your packages.

[camas]

don't worry. when i use to shop at price or Sam's and if they got too backed up i would just wheel around the checker. he had a choice of chasing me and letting all others go. he never chased me. this was in Tacoma Washington.

PS i never stole anything so they couldn't do a thing to me

[Stu Cohen]

>First question - what state did this happen in?

California. Los Angeles. Not Fry's (though I have stood in that lengthy line many times). It was Circuit City. And if I wasn't in a hurry, I probably would have just done it since I don't enjoy starting trouble for the sport of it.

[Triple Word Score]

Here's what I hope you'll do. Write a letter to the company and explain what happened, what you did, and why, and see (if they bother to respond) what they say. (I'd be very interested.)

When I shop at a warehouse store, they check receipts on the egress but they don't make a long production of it and I've never had to wait more than a minute, so it never occured to me to object. I know that if someone walks out with a digital camera or something, I end up paying for it. I don't mind the store protecting itself that way. I think your objection was to the extent of the hassle you faced leaving the store and I'll bet they apologize to you if they respond. The automatic assumption that we are guilty-till-proven-innocent has become acceptable, I guess.

They are going to lose customers if this is a routine problem. Seems to me that they could avoid the long delay somehow.

I don't think they have a "right" to do this, but they sure have a right to refuse to let us come back if we don't Get In Line, Open Our Mouths, Say Ah, Turn Our Heads and Cough.

[Stu Cohen]

Lawyer here: I believe that you were within your rights to leave. The store probably could have been sued for false imprisonment (and assault and battery) if they detained you by use of physical force to search you or your packages.

Thanks. I suspected that you are 100% correct. I usually support shoplifting prevention and stand in line like a good lemming, but I always thought I was doing so VOLUNTARILY.

This probably explains why the guy didn't lay a hand on me (that, or the fact that I outweighed him by 50 pounds and had a good 6 inch height advantage).

[Drango]

I always assumed there were two lines....One for sheep, and the other for me and anyone else who wasn't shoplifting...I ain't got no wool on me so I don't stand in the sheep line.

However, like you, I don't go out of my way to make trouble.

[lelio]

What gets me about these 2nd checkout lines is what do they think they are going to stop? Are they counting every single package in your bag?

[Not now, Not ever!]

In California, I believe kidnapping is defined as forcing you to move or preventing you from moving against your wishes.

This will be fun to watch.

[PackerBoy]

On a practical level, we all understand that shoplifting is a HUGE problem for retailers. But delaying and practically strip searching your customers is the worst form of prevention program I have ever heard of. Their HQ needs to get your letter of complaint.

[Riley]

I'd blow it off and forget about it. If you're still upset about it, then I'd consider writing the corporate office about it.

I used to work in a store that was similar in character, although we didn't actually have what they call an 'exit greeter'. We got raped by shoplifters on a daily basis. It was a computer store, and I was one of the techs. I'd find display units with the *processors and RAM* lifted out of them.

I think the guard had to run after you so that everybody else didn't also go running out. If it were me, I think that I'd look at it this way- he had to put on his little show for the rest of the people waiting in line.

As far as the law is concerned- it probably varies from state to state, but where I am from (CA), the Loss Prevention people have to witness you hiding something as if to shoplift it, and maintain a line of sight on you until you have actually walked outside without paying for it. Then they can detain you.

[oceanview]

the cops can and will do nothing. if they call the cops, sue the store, its a sure winner.