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Thank you very much for your thoughts (that goes for everyone here, by the way).

I agree completely with you that it's definitely better to be poor here than to be poor in many other countries. There's no doubt about it, even poor people here have a very high quality of life relative to someof the world's poorest countries. I guess my stumbling block is that we aren't one of the poorer countries on earth, we are indisputably the richest. And here's the rub, there are many countries, all of whom are poorer than we are, in which the quality of life for the average earner, is higher.

Take myself for instance. I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me.

I don't know, I hear what you're saying and partially agree with you, but I'm not sure it's fair to compare the quality of life in the US to that which prevails in the worldest poorest countries. Of course life in the US is better than life in Afghanistan, that's not saying anything, they're two totally different countries. The question in my mind is how do we compare with other similarly prosperous countries? That is to say, let's compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

As for appreciating the value of money, I can't help but feel that, if anything, the working poor in this country who often have to work multiple jobs just in order to make ends meet, would be more appreciative of the value of an earned dollar than some billionaire who rakes in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks.

My time is not your commodity.

I've been in your situation. But I did not stay there for long. I had small children and had to have some kind of insurance coverage. At one point I had a choice of a very low paying stressful job with health coverage and good paying low stress job with no coverage. I held out as long as I could and when I couldn't take it anymore I bolted for the better paying job and prayed no got sick or seriously injured.

But I didn't stay there for long. As soon as I completed school and got some credentials I took a benefited job.

I think what I'm trying to say is if you make life too comfortable, people may not be motivated to move up. Sometimes its easy to just do what's barely required.

Cheer up, if your as bright as you seem to be there will be a job for you somewhere. It may not be exactly what you thought you wanted, but life is a journey and as Scarlet said "tomorrow is another day".

I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments.

You are spending $20k/anno to study polisci? Good Lord! You'll get a better education on this forum and it won't cost you that!

"Take myself for instance. I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me."

Son, if you think it is so great on the other side of the pond, why don't you pack just your bags and move over there?

I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments.

Methinks this paragraph here renders the gist of your post to "sour grapes" or "envy." The reason this country's great is because economically speaking, downside is limited and upside is unlimited.
What in the world do you propose, a government regulation whereby "executive" salaries can't exceed some ratio when compared to "worker" salaries? I guess they haven't covered Locke yet in any of your classes.

Take myself for instance. I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me.

I mean no offense by the following, but in a hypothetical sense I want you to think about this on a personal level.

You have the choice. Are you going to use your talent, your education, your gifts, to pull yourself up and become successful, or are you going to whine about it and complain that there are others who have worked hard to deserve their income while you have done nothing for yourself? How about others? If you were to work hard and become successful and wealthy, do you believe it is possible for others? Would that change your outlook?

"the working poor in this country who often have to work multiple jobs just in order to make ends meet, "

Deluxe cable package, DVD rentals, credit card payments, ATM Fees, car payments, etc...that is why they are the "working poor"....fithy stinking rich compared to 3rd world poverty.

Do you realize that you are complaining because you have to pay for your own education? Why in God's name would you object to making that investment in your own future?

Of course life in the US is better than life in Afghanistan, that's not saying anything, they're two totally different countries.

And the reason for that difference is that one recognizes the right of the individual to keep that which he earns!

The question in my mind is how do we compare with other similarly prosperous countries? That is to say, let's compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges.

Well, if liberals change this country to one that practices rampant income redistribution (even more than it does now), then we will start becoming more and more like Afghanistan!

"Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school."

All paid for by someone else.

"In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me."

Also paid for by someone else.

Europe is different (and Canada). They don't have to pay for the defense of the West, the US does that for them. Thus, they can delude themselves about the affordability of Socialism. Consider, OTOH, the quality of life in the former Soviet Union at the height of the Cold War, or the PRC today.

"As for appreciating the value of money, I can't help but feel that, if anything, the working poor in this country who often have to work multiple jobs just in order to make ends meet, would be more appreciative of the value of an earned dollar than some billionaire who rakes in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks."

The goal is not to appreciate the value of a dollar, but to appreciate those things that the dollar can get you. More dollars means more things to appreciate and more flexibility in the selection of those things.

If all the money, and by extension, stuff in the world were evenly distributed, what would you have that I would want? What incentive would there be for me to work for you? I suppose I might want to have more of something, but what would make you want to have less? And even if I could work for you for some of your stuff, as soon as you paid me, I would be "Rich" and somebody would want to redistribute my "Wealth" back to the "Poor" thus leaving me where I started except that I did all the work and you did none.

And what about all the things that don't divide evenly? Who gets them? Nobody? Does everybody get 1/327th of a 60 inch Plasma TV? Or are they going to be reserved for the elite that insures that the rest of us all have the same stuff?

"I don't know, I hear what you're saying and partially agree with you, but I'm not sure it's fair to compare the quality of life in the US to that which prevails in the worldest poorest countries. Of course life in the US is better than life in Afghanistan, that's not saying anything, they're two totally different countries. The question in my mind is how do we compare with other similarly prosperous countries? That is to say, let's compare apples and apples, not apples and oranges."

The poorest of the poor in the West are wealthier than all but the wealthiest members of most societies on this planet. The disparities are far more extreme, however. How many of the rulers/wealthy class of countries like China, Columbia, Uganda and so on are millionaires while their citizens live on a dollar or two per day? An average American makes 100 times as much, yet our rulers and all but a handful of our wealthy class are still only millionaires. Seems like a far more equitable distribution of wealth.

I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me.

Dear Socialist, get another job, pay your own way through school, save whatever's left over.... Or move to Europe and stop puking up this BS.

The question in my mind is how do we compare with other similarly prosperous countries?

O.K. How about France? They just had a heat wave....Refresh my memory, how many people did it Kill?

15,000?????

I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school.

Your perspective is skewed, because of your position in life. As a student, borrowing 20K a year to cover tuition, you need to reflect on where you expect to be in say 10 years....

I am also a student. Except I am 40, work full time Have a stay at home mom, and 3 kids, and will leave my undergrad, without Owing a dime. Law school, will not work out that way., But I also know that because of my 4.0 GPA, and work history, If i get in and succeed in a decent Law School, I can expect almost to Double my current salary on Day 1.

than some billionaire who rakes in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks.

And lastly, stop listening to your professors. That person does not exist. Most of the top 2% got there, by working longer hours (For instance, right now, my day starts at 05:30, and ends around 10pm...5 or 6 days a week...), and sweating more sweat, and taking more risks, than did those below.

Most of the people at the very top, are entrepenuers, or people who started out in a high risk/low reward ratio enterprise

And finally, a look at who supports the system tax wise...

It shows that the 32.3 percent share paid in 1996 by the top 1 percent of income earners--those with AGIs over $229,230--was considerably higher than the 25.0 percent they paid in 1986. Similarly, the 50.8 percent paid by the top 5 percent of income earners in 1996 was nine percentage points higher than the share paid by the same percentile of filers in 1986.

Likewise, in 1996, 62.4 percent of federal individual income taxes were collected from individuals in the top 10 percent of income earners, or those with incomes over $74, 481. In 1986, just over half of all federal individual income taxes were collected from filers in this percentile. Meanwhile, the top half of the income scale paid 95.7 percent of 1996's federal individual income tax burden. Those earners had AGIs of at least $23,160. In 1986, this group bore 93.4 percent of this burden.

This decade-long shift in the tax burden toward higher income earners has obviously lightened the load on lower income filers. In 1986, individuals in the lower half of income earners paid 6.6 percent of total federal individual income taxes. By 1996 this figure had dropped to just 4.3 percent.

As for appreciating the value of money, I can't help but feel that, if anything, the working poor in this country who often have to work multiple jobs just in order to make ends meet, would be more appreciative of the value of an earned dollar than some billionaire who rakes in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks.

But the billionaire doesn't rake in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks. He raked in millions by providing a product or service the people demanded. He is only accessing his millions by selling a bunch of stocks. Also most wealthy individuals (maybe not the ultra-wealthy, I don't know) didn't start that way. Many began their lives either poor or middle-class. It is in this lifestyle that they developed the appreciation for the value of a dollar, and the desire to be successful, that has brought them to their current wealth.

Hey PoliSci! I only got to post ten, but I just need to comment! I am an American living in Sweden, which is held up as the example for everyone to follow (if you want socialism, which I absolutely do NOT!). There are still homeless people here (quite a few--my husband and I call them 'Göteborg's dirty little secret')--and this to me means that they must be trying to be homeless. In Sweden, you get government money for just about everything. . .

Unless you work. Then you pay for the rest. Perhaps CEO's don't make more than 10-15% but the average worker makes WAAAAAY less than the average worker in the US. And the 'standard of living' that I hear touted so often isn't all that great. There is no chance that the average college educated person will ever make a great salary (and I am talking they won't get near $60,000/year--even with a master's degree and lots of great work experience in science, technology, engineering, or medicine.)

The unemployment is going up here because so many people opt out of working (why bother when your unemployment from the gov is comparable to working 40 hours a week?) Almost everyone I know abuses the system in some way, and most of them think that the government largesse will never run out. Medical care is horrid if you aren't going in for a routine check-up (booked two months in advance at the doctor's convenience--take the appointment or wait two more months). Emergency care is wretched (think waiting 24-30 hours in an emergency room when you are peeing blood and have a history of kidney disease).

I absolutely can't wait to come home! And for the record, I have been a single mom, used food stamps for two months myself, and with a college degree (paying loans, too!) have yet to hit $30K/year. But never for a heartbeat have I begrudged someone their money (not even Paris Hilton or Michael Moore). It's just not the American way because though it seems 'unfair' on one level that there is such a distinction between rich and poor--we are just about the only place that a person can make millions if they want to badly enough! (Which I must not!) :) (sorry about the rant!)

ping for later

Take myself for instance. I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me.

Not trying to be snide here, a legitimate question. So, why are you still here? Why aren't you taking advantage of that opportunity? A rational actor working for his own best interests, believing the above, would move and partake. So there must be other considerations.

Have you read Atlas Shrugged, by Ayn Rand? You may find some of your answers there.

As to the disparity of income, my recent experience working with high school students is that there are very few who are motivated to work hard and go on to be the so called Captains of Industry. More and more are happy just to "chill out" and take whatever the nanny state hands to them, and then complain about it. Fewer and fewer want to actually "work" at a career. So as the high achievers (like really good, proven CEOs) become more scarce their compensation gets bid up. Just paying a mediocre executive 25X a workers salary doesn't make him smart enough to run a company. Money doesn't make the CEO. The CEO is so well paid because there are few of them that can consistently make profitable decisions. The CEO makes the money.

As for appreciating the value of money, I can't help but feel that, if anything, the working poor in this country who often have to work multiple jobs just in order to make ends meet, would be more appreciative of the value of an earned dollar than some billionaire who rakes in millions simply by clicking a button and selling a bunch of stocks.

You just blew any credibility you had.

"Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me."

You should move to Europe and quit asking me to pay for you to remain alive. Kick your parents in the ass for forgetting, "If you can't feed them, don't breed them." What I pay in taxes every year would certainly supply you with everything you are asking for. You would become a comfortable middle class citizen immediately just for being born. Complain to your Representative for not giving it to YOU.

I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments.

$20,000 a year on tuition? I would hope you're really bright and the degree you're working on is worth that kind of tuition. There are good universities which cost far less and many students work their way through college. A bright student can manage to take 15 hours a semester and find time to work the rest of the time. There are times in your life that you can make do without health insurance --- and many health care procedures can be paid for without insurance.

"And here's the rub, there are many countries, all of whom are poorer than we are, in which the quality of life for the average earner, is higher. "

Please name one.

Take myself for instance. I'm fairly bright, I've worked hard, gotten good grades, stayed away from addictive substances, never had any trouble with the law, in other words, I've played by the rules. I've also lost my job, have no health insurance, and am having to borrow $20,000/year to make my tuition payments. Now, if I were living in Europe, not only would I not be paying tuition, I would actually be receiving a modest stipend to cover my living costs while I was in school. In addition, I'd be covered by a public health plan, which admittedly would probably not provide quite as good a coverage as the private insurance I could opt for if I wanted to spend the extra money on it, but at least I would have something, which, compared to the nothing I have right now in our wealthy US, sounds kind of like a step up to me.

Try not to forget, that the european nations that have such high standards for those such as yourself, are also going down the toilet financially. Sort of a "we lose money on every sale, but we make it up in volume" situation. While it's nice that the government "cares" so much, it something that can't be sustained. Eventually, the working class simply won't be able to pay enough in taxes to support those who don't work. And it will all come crashing down.

Mark