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Maybe i am missing something on all the hate for ethanol? I swear I don't understand if I am being lied to or the people that hate it are? I live in the midwest,and have no involvement in farming or ethanol production...Personally I am glad we can grow fuel..derived from corn..the spin I always hear on tv and radio here is that there is NO SUBSIDY on ethanol..they do however pay a lower tax rate to be able to grow,compete with straight gasoline,and perfect the product...a subsidy and tax cut are different things..
Anyhow here the price of ethanol is always about 4-5 cents less than regular,and I have never heard of fuel problems with cars ,or shortages of the product. There was trouble with METHANOL years back. Now its the only fuel I buy. I have heard almost 50-60 percent of all fuel purchased here is ethanol,even though its not required in any way..
My current car used only ethanol unless I couldn't get it (out of state)and I drove 197,000 miles on the original 4 cylinder dodge motor,with only routine high mileage problems.
I guess what I am saying is if they can squeeze more out of ethanol by converting into a hydrogen product great..but I can't understand why any place other than an oil state would hate it so much?
20 posted on 02/12/2004 5:30:38 PM PST by uncle fenders
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To: uncle fenders
the spin I always hear on tv and radio here is that there is NO SUBSIDY on ethanol

There may or may not be a subisdy on ethanol itself, i don't know. There is however a subsidy on its major feedstock- corn. That is, in effect, a subsidy on ethanol.

The reason why there is a reaction to this is that many of us understand economics and know that if this was so great, then it would not need subsidies in order to be profitable for people to produce it.

22 posted on 02/12/2004 5:34:33 PM PST by Rodney King (No, we can't all just get along)
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To: uncle fenders
"Anyhow here the price of ethanol is always about 4-5 cents less than regular"

You think there's no subsidy of ethanol production? There is. Ever wonder why ADM is the sponsor of just about every PBS show with a news or politics focus, as well as a multitude of ads on newspaper editorial pages? Ethanol subsidies, and to coopt those sources so they don't oppose them. Ever. Also, the few politicians who have opposed ethanol subsidies always change their tune when they run for President -- that's due to the Iowa caucus.

"My current car used only ethanol.."

Actually you're probably using about 10% ethanol / 90% gasoline.

25 posted on 02/12/2004 5:46:03 PM PST by DWPittelli
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To: uncle fenders
If this technology gets me off the grid I'm all for it. Sometimes technology does catch up with pipe dreams. Here's hoping we can decrease our reliance on imported oil. Many of the world's present evils would be resolved.
29 posted on 02/12/2004 5:55:06 PM PST by Arkie2
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To: uncle fenders
(ADM - Archer Daniels Midland makes nearly one-third of all American ethanol.)

No subsidy?

When the feds tax regular gasoline a certain amount, and reduce that amount by over 50 cents per gallon for ethanol, that's a subsidy. It reduces tax revenue by about $1 billion per year, and that money goes to the ethanol producers. (And on the other side of the equation, corn subsidies also throw more money ADM's way.)

30 posted on 02/12/2004 5:55:43 PM PST by DWPittelli
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To: uncle fenders
Maybe i am missing something on all the hate for ethanol?

I don't think it's hatred for ethanol per se. It just a negative reaction to what appears to be a major scam. Ethanol is only economical if you include the huge agricultural subsidies and special tax breaks that other energy sources are denied. This mainly benefits Archer-Daniels-Midland, which pours plenty of money into buying off politicians promoting ethanol production and enacting regulations requiring its addition to gasoline.

The worst part of this scam is that there is a strong argument (which Cornell University scientist David Pimentel has advanced) that it takes more energy to produce ethanol than that ethanol contains. In other words, ethanol is a net energy loser. Obviously the ethanol industry has attempted to rebut Pimentel, and others have in turn attempted to rebut the rebuttal.

So it's hard to get excited about a method of turning ethanol into hydrogen. If ethanol itself is of questionable economic value, taking the addition step (and the additional expense) of converting it to hydrogen doesn't solve that underlying problem even if hydrogen can power a car more efficiently than ethanol.

46 posted on 02/12/2004 6:21:09 PM PST by dpwiener
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To: uncle fenders
It's hated because some sorry assed politicians created a mandate that the entire rest of the country has to use it as a fuel oxygenate and it jacks up the price of their gas while lowering their mileage.

You're actually burning pure ethanol? There's one place near the Oakland airport here that sells that, for about $2.50 a gallon when I last saw it a few years back. Is your dodge an older carbureated one of does it have injection? I ask because you have to drill the jets in older cars while you can probably just modify the software for injection vehicles computers.

I'd love to just be able to have my car be able to take it as an alternative. Nice to have backup!
68 posted on 02/12/2004 9:24:56 PM PST by Axenolith (<And something to mix in the kool aid when camping too :)>)
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To: uncle fenders
I guess what I am saying is if they can squeeze more out of ethanol by converting into a hydrogen product great..but I can't understand why any place other than an oil state would hate it so much?

Others have explained the ethanol racket, so I'll address the hydrogen absurdity. (And maybe someone else has already addressed this too, I haven't read the whole thread yet.)

If the goal is cheap hydrogen, using clean, economical production, the only method that makes sense is to crack H2O using nuclear plants.

But, that is politically incorrect. It's so doubleplusunpc that we'd apparently rather have the whole country collapse due to extortion from the oil sheikhs than to build a series of nuke plants to crack water into fuel -- and, for a nearly free bonus, desalinate seawater for municipal supplies and irrigation, taking care of another "issue" at the same time.

We can address another "issue" too (even if it's not a real issue), just by dumping the oxygen (left over after cracking the hydrogen out of the water) into the atmosphere. Put up some pretty billboards, "This Nuclear Plant Produces As Much Clean, Pure Oxygen as 500 Square Miles of Rainforest!"

Three simple words explain the problem: We are stupid.

Resolve that problem, and everything else becomes trivial.

125 posted on 02/23/2004 3:21:45 AM PST by Don Joe (We've traded the Rule of Law for the Law of Rule.)
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