A return to submissive wives?

Boston.com ^ | 2 February 2004 | Cathy Young

[shrinkermd]

QUITE A FEW people would probably rail against Laura Schlessinger, the radio pop psychologist known for her diatribes against abortion, working mothers, and gay rights, even if she said that you should be kind to animals and brush your teeth regularly. When "Dr. Laura" writes a book which pins most of the blame for modern marital problems on selfish, overly demanding women, that's bound to ruffle feathers.

[HairOfTheDog]

Hmmm..... OK. I didn't read the whole thread, only responded to a couple of your early posts. If you layed out lots of reasons why marriage is stupid I missed it. There is a lot of other chaffe on the thread.

Why is marriage stupid? I have heard you say "Because ~everyone's~ parents were screwed up and didn't teach them". ? What are we supposed to do about that? How is believing that going to help you live in a marriage?

[KantianBurke]

Why marriage is a foolish proposition for a man:

1) Divorce courts
2) Taxation
3) "Modern" woman's attitudes toward marriage and their own pasts
4) Cow, free milk parable
5) Health
6) Societal acceptance of divorce, bastardy

Each could be expanded upon if need be. Solutions?

1) BIG reformation of the court system
2) BIG changes in our levels of taxation for those in their 20's, 30's, married couples
The remaining issues are tied up with one's upbringing and outlook on life. Hence its very hard to legislate. Perhaps a generation of unmarried spinsters will counteract the past 30 years of societal rot as a warning?

[Blzbba]

"I am beginning to think you might actually believe you did answer my refutations."


Unlike your latest post, in which you completely ignore my assertation that she was involved in pornography.

The rest of your post, blathering about my stance on zero-tolerance policies -- a stance that you are blithely ignorant of -- was disregarded. I did note that you've resorted to personal insults again - Good job!

[RLK]

I'll get back to you on this it will require about five or six pages of comment.

[HairOfTheDog]

1. I agree that divorce courts are a bad place, and that the outcome is bad where there is divorce and children.

2. Taxes are high for everyone. It isn't worse for married couples and taxes are better if there are kids. Taxes aren't keepin' anyone single that doesn't want to be. If you wanted to marry someone, you'd pay it first and try to fix the tax law later.

3-4. Your 3 and 4 are at odds. You don't like "modern woman's" attitudes toward marriage but you will take advantage of the side benefit of those attitudes in free milk/sex. Smart people realize that we don't marry for sex.... we marry for fellowship in life. You know... the whole life... some lives raise children who grow and leave and the marriage continues into the part of life that exists after our sexiness fades into old age. Right now all you see value in is sex. Sex is the good part, and the part you can still offer, perhaps. But sex isn't gonna be a good draw when all you are is aching joints and bedpans. That is when you will want the commitment of someone who committed to you long ago.

5. I don't know where you are going with this one.

6. But I thought you wanted a better way out of marriage up in number 1. And you want the free sex.... That makes bastards sometimes. What should we do with them?

Solutions? How many of these can ~you~ fix by being smart yourself? Seems like 2-6 are entirely irrelevant when looking at an individual across the table from you and evaluating whether you two can spend life together. They are trends we can measure each other against and decide if we like what we see in a person. Number 1 we all need to try to avoid. Even if it were a 'fixed' system, you will only see it if you have failed in the main goal.

[Woahhs]

...you completely ignore my assertation that she was involved in pornography.

No dear. I don't bother with it, because it is wrong. Your whole premise rests on an antiquated and pharisaical understanding of what constitutes pornography. As I said earlier, look up "conservative" in your Pocket Webster's and tell me you'd be ready to die on that hill.

This doesn't begin to approach the intellectual dishonesty you are guilty of in trying to bait and switch your arguments.

You can pretend you aren't reading or comprehending my posts, but it's plainly a more elaborate version of hiding your own eyes and claiming you can't be seen.

For the life of me, I can't fathom how any adult could go to such extremes just to keep from admitting you were wrong.

[Woahhs]

Just because a woman knows how to keep house does not mean they have good character.

Of course it doesn't mean that, but as I said earlier in the post you refer to, the idea is to discover duplicity the woman would not think to, or bother with, carefully hiding from view.

[gigo]

Why marriage is a foolish proposition for a man:

1) Divorce courts
2) Taxation
3) "Modern" woman's attitudes toward marriage and their own pasts
4) Cow, free milk parable
5) Health
6) Societal acceptance of divorce, bastardy...

---

There are lots of things in life that are foolish propositions. (Investing in stockmarket, Riding motorcycles, marriage etc.) I'll grant you, getting married is a biggie as is having kids. I'm not going to spend my one and only life as a wallflower - obsessed w/ protecting myself physically, financially or emotionally. I believe in taking some careful-chances. The payback for finding the right girl is huge. Not knocking the free milk, but the bought and paid for milk is the best I've had.

[Blzbba]

"For the life of me, I can't fathom how any adult could go to such extremes just to keep from admitting you were wrong."

If I felt that I was incorrect, I'd happily admit it. But that hasn't occurred here.

Hey - two posts in a row for us without personal insults! Hooray!

[Woahhs]

If I felt that I was incorrect, I'd happily admit it. But that hasn't occurred here.

Your "feelings" about the matter have nothing to do with the validity of what you've said about her. No one said you have to like Dr. Laura; no one said you even have to agree with Dr. Laura, but character assassination is no way to overcome the objective validity of her point of view.

I've made clear your charges against her do not stand up to scrutiny, and your response has been gainsaying, evasion, and sanctimony.

For Pete's sake! The woman was young, and now she's not. Is it not the goal of every person to become wiser as they age?

If nothing else, she points to the very real gender inequity in modern America. That inequity is all the more insidious in that practically no one accustomed to thinking of those traits that are inherently female with a critical eye, nor are they accustomed to think of those traits that are inherently male with any charity. The resulting inclination is women who can absolve themselves of any evil, and men that have learned to treat women as very sophisticated, and possibly hazardous, pets.

If you can ignore her thesis based on booby pictures from her twenties taken by her boyfriend, and her intolerance with mothers that will neither commit to sound parenting practices, nor admit to their ultimately selfish lifestyle choices, then rational discussion is impossible. If rational discussion is impossible, insult is the only thing left.

[MissAmericanPie]

What makes you assume a person can't be happy as a single? If he meets the right girl, and I'll try my best to make sure he knows what to look for, fine.

But I think his chances are slim and I am not the only one given the fact many articles relate the growing reluctance of young men to commit to marriage today. Given today's divorce rate, over 50%, his chances of getting wiped out financially and emotionally are pretty high.

Some mother's are as protective of their boys as other's are of their daughters. I think men get a raw deal in this world and are terribly unappreciated, I'm not into raising anybodies fool. I will equip him with as much knowledge on the subject as I can.

The other worry is that he is far too popular. Last year the school called and said they were going to have to move his locker from the intersection of two halls, because the crowd of girls waiting for him around his locker caused too much congestion. He needs to take a pause and realize the trouble he could get into so very easily and so very early.

[Blzbba]

"If you can ignore her thesis based on booby pictures from her twenties taken by her boyfriend, and her intolerance with mothers that will neither commit to sound parenting practices, nor admit to their ultimately selfish lifestyle choices, then rational discussion is impossible. If rational discussion is impossible, insult is the only thing left."


I agree with much of what DL has said (the few times I've listened to her). Indeed, if more women took her advice, there'd be fewer single mothers and a drop in the host of problems caused by the irrational mistakes women make. (Yes, men do too, but DL mainly focuses on women, for obvious reasons). However, I choose not to listen to her (being male, happily married, and with a stay-home wife and mother of my twins, I obviously have no need for her advice anyways) for the reasons I've listed in previous posts to you.

Also, I am tired of the many revelations that people previously held on a pedestal have made just as many flaws (moreso, in many cases) as the 'average Joe'. I can't recall when this started, but OJ beheading his wife, Clinton's numerous adulteries, Gingrich's hypocritical 'Family Values' platform (as he was getting his wife to sign the divorce certificate on her deathbed), Clinton still cheating & raping his way thru 8 years, Rush "Pill Popper/Pro Drug War" Limbaugh, and Dr. Laura, whose transgressions are probably the LEAST offensive in this albeit-short list. Yet, all the above continue to make millions while not suffering the same consequences you & I would if we were guilty of the same crimes/behaviors.

You could say I've become disillusioned. Sorry to have taken that out on you.

[Woahhs]

Good Heavens man! I thought you were a girl!

I don't say that as some kind of sexist insult, but as a preface to apologizing for my sarcastic use of the term "dear."

I am sorry for the patronizing you, and apologize without qualification.

That being said, I have to ask "why the rush to judgment?" Why offer an opinion when by your own admission you haven't listened to her very much; then the furious defense of that opinion when you knew it was formed with only a passing familiarity of the subject?

These are the actions of a young man defending his pride, not a thinker defending his conclusions. Holding strong opinions is fine, provided the basis of those opinions is equally strong.

Dr. Laura presents her own role as to "preach, teach, and nag," not to formulate dogma, or pen comprehensive treatises on morality. Would listeners be better-off if she mimicked the rest of popular culture and constructed elaborate excuses to justify anything she felt like doing?

Even so, a quick survey of the early life of St. Augustine should be sufficient to establish some of the most useful advice on the danger of tigers comes from those that have rode the damn things.

While I understand the frustration you express toward certain public figures, shouldn't it give you pause to recognize the opinions you have toward those people come from their ideological enemies?

Rush Limbaugh for example... it's no surprise many in the chattering classes have been looking for something to "Bork" him with for years, so we won't go into their motivations. But consider the libertarians, specifically the ones who like drugs. In the finest tradition of the militant homosexuals, they want to punish him for not supporting their pet vice. To that end, they reach all the way back to 1998 to lift a single questionably contexted quote they can use to strike at him for not being their champion. His uncovering of the house bank scandal doesn't matter. His single-handed resurrection of AM radio doesn't matter. His success at teaching more Americans more about the workings of their own government than any single figure in fifty years doesn't matter. His instrumental place in taking power away from socialists of all stripes doesn't matter. His leadership in breaking the stranglehold liberals had on the dissemination of information doesn't matter. His unflinching promotion of American values doesn't matter. All that matters is he doesn't support their predilections.

I don't know about you, but just as I inherently mistrust those who judge "friend or foe" based on approving who they screw, so I mistrust those who make the same judgment based on approval of their favorite intoxicant.

Yeah, the guy got strung out on drugs. So why does that so enrage recreational drug-users that claim no similarity to their own habits of consumption? Does it make more sense to believe they are truly outraged in principle by his hypocrisy, or are they outraged because even in the grip of addiction he won't give his stamp of approval to their casual consumption.

In my experience, these "libertarians" show much more similarity to smokers that despise anyone who reminds them they stink, than smokers who are offended by product liability suits against a government approved substance.

Of course you are free to form your opinions any way you see fit, and based on any criteria you like, but if you're going to present them to the marketplace of ideas, those opinions should have more to commend themselves than simply that they are yours, and many others of undetermined qualification share them.

[PFKEY]

Exhortations to a virtuous life. The mutual duties of man and wife, by the example of Christ and of the Church.

Thank you for posting this.

Too often people forget to go to the Word of God; the blueprint for life, happiness, success.

One major failure that men make is they shirk the obligation to be the spiritual head of the family.

They leave this to the Wife which turns the whole design upside down.

[Woahhs]

One major failure that men make is they shirk the obligation to be the spiritual head of the family.

I must respectfully disagree. In light of modern cultural mores I'd say the problem of wives that refuse to follow is much more prevalent than husbands that will not lead.

[bootless]

I read this book in three days, and overall, she's right on. But it's not about submission - it's about respect, thoughtfulness and listening. And it's NOT about me, me, me. When you give freely, so will your spouse/sweetie/beau, etc. Having been on both sides of the happiness fence, I can attest to how well it works, and how awful things can be when the respect and appreciation is not there.

As far as the basic message goes, I think she's right on. And I am NOT a submissive person. Being thoughtful and respectful of another human being takes strength.

[PFKEY]

I must respectfully disagree. In light of modern cultural mores I'd say the problem of wives that refuse to follow is much more prevalent than husbands that will not lead.

I'm sure that both sexes fail on many points.

I made my observation based on what I hear as the most common complaint of Christian woman. Woman who are late teens to college age. These are the girls who by this time have a boyfriend and are looking towards marriage.

They tend to be the stronger Christian. Taking the role of spiritual leader in the context of a commited relationship with their boyfriend.

Could be the issue of sex or just going to services or reading their Bible or not going to the bar.

[Woahhs]

I made my observation based on what I hear as the most common complaint of Christian woman. Woman who are late teens to college age. These are the girls who by this time have a boyfriend and are looking towards marriage.

Precisely my point. These women aren't even married yet, and they're already critical.

One of the characteristics of true leadership is to hold fast even when the decision is unpopular. In my experience, American Christian women have circumvented the process; they want to be lead, but only to those places and in the manner they wish to go anyway.

[Woahhs]

I forgot to add a point. The complaints you cite strike me as getting the right bf, then making a good Christian out of him instead of getting a good Christian and making a bf out of him.

[PFKEY]

Precisely my point. These women aren't even married yet, and they're already critical.

Do you think they might have a point or do you think they are just being critical?