Centuries-Old Murals Revealed (Discovered) In Mission Dolores (San Francisco)

SF Chronicle ^ | 1-29-2004 | Carl Nolte

[blam]

Two young men, one an artist, the other an archaeologist, crawled over the ancient redwood beams of San Francisco's Mission Dolores earlier this month, opened a trap door, lowered an electric light into a space behind the main altar -- and stared into the 18th century.

[expat_panama]

English of course in their hatred for all things Spanish and Catholic

The Brits also have a very strong doctrine of "Yanks were always bad to the red-indians".  It distorts much they write in science, news, history, literature, etc.

[Varda]

When I was in college, I had to read a number of English reports and papers about various subjects including the New World. They really don't have the idea of separating their personal philosophies/advocacy's from their professional work. It made for really irritating reading after a while.

[Publius6961]

At what site are the images available for viewing? The Chronicle? elsewhere?

[Publius6961]

BUMP

[CobaltBlue]

I was on my way to court and didn't have time to look for a better link - really shouldn't have taken the time I did take to look for the one image I found but was still drinking my coffee trying to clear the cobwebs.

Just got back, won my motion, am now going to work on a settlement demand - cha-ching! - walking on air.

It's clear to me that the artists worked from common images that they had already seen around the mission. In the far-off passages of my memory, under the cobwebs, the image which is stirring is from a travelling show of Spanish sacred architecture from Peru that I saw at the Delgado Art Museum in New Orleans several decades ago.

In other words, they didn't create the image, they reproduced it. Which is how church paintings and sculptures work, in general, everybody copies something they've already seen, but in their own way.

[CobaltBlue]

The party line may have changed

I have no idea what "party line" you're talking about, but I don't think it's germane to the subject at hand. I do agree that the images appear to be motivated by the wish to express religious beliefs.

[expat_panama]

I have no idea what "party line" you're talking about, but I don't think it's germane to the subject at hand. 

It's a shorthand for the 'academic standards' that spotlight (IMHO) a well deserved connotation of virtual soviet style political control.  History and Archeology are alive and changing because of evolving contemporary filters that open vistas to some areas of a new find, and close off others.

But maybe I'm rambling on about stuff you already know about.    You probably agree with me that the Mission Dolores Mural article, like all such reports, has to be read with an understanding of which academic bias exists.  In this case, the article seems to fall into the old 'native Americans were slaves' doctrine.  It's wrong (again IMHO) to suggest that the drawings were forced and not, as you (and I) believe, "motivated by the wish to express religious beliefs."

[CobaltBlue]

It may well be that the reference to slavery was gratuitous. I don't know much about California Indians, recall from a book titled "Ishi" that they were basically wiped out.
http://www.ucsf.edu/about_ucsf/history_philosophy/ishi.html

[msdrby]

ping

[nickcarraway]

ping

[expat_panama]

Political factions will imply that indigenous people were ‘basically wiped out’ when they justify grants for reparations, create new government agencies, increase agency payrolls, etc.. When they want to receive benefits or increase representation, then Census numbers (http://factfinder.census.gov/servlet/QTTable?_bm=y&-geo_id=04000US06&-qr_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U_DP1&-ds_name=DEC_2000_SF1_U) showing about a million living in California alone are used. That doesn’t even count additional millions of people who are unaware that they may be also descended from the original tribes.

Many died when native and western cultures mixed, but most died from diseases (like Ishi) from ‘friends’. Once immunities were developed, native populations have apparently increased to levels higher than had been before first contact.

[Canticle_of_Deborah]

bump

[Rockpile]

" painted in red, black and yellow by Native Americans in 1791"

And just how the hell does anyone know WHO painted the figures? What are they signed "Jose Blanketass" or something?

[JudyB1938]

Of course, I know that the Indians in San Francisco were not Aztecs. (That made me laugh.) However, we both know that no culture lives in isolation. Ideas and influence flow freely, often absorbing into one another. That's why it struck me that there MIGHT be a correlation here.

(This definition isn't for you, just thought I'd insert it here ... "Correlation: capacity of being converted into, or of giving place to, one another, under certain conditions.")

BTW, congratulations on your court case. Hope you make lots of money. ;)

[CobaltBlue]

It would be interesting to study whether Native American culture somehow influenced the Spaniards and Portuguese in Latin America.

I do know that North American culture was influenced by Native Americans. Well, we all do, of course. We all know about Squanto, for example. And many of us know about how our Constitution was in part influenced by the Five Civilized Tribes.

For example, the word "caucus" is Algonquian in derivation.

Sorry if I am laying it on too thick, I am presently working on the genealogy of my Chippewa great-grandmother. I've got a stack of photos of relatives with strong Indian features, but no names on the back, and a stack of documents from the National Archives about ancestors who went to the Carlisle Indian School and the Fort Totten Indian School.

According to family history, around World War I, the US government was giving land to my family but my great grandfather, who was of German heritage, did not want anybody to know that he was married to a "squaw."

I don't think she was better than anybody else, and I don't think she was worse than anybody else. She had a story to tell, and I mean to find it out and tell it. The family was Catholic, perhaps because they intermarried with French Canadians, perhaps because the Indian School in Fort Totten was run by nuns. I know she was devout because she was alive until I was grown, but I never thought to ask her about her past while she was alive, and now she's gone forever.

[Henchman]

"Blind said, anyone can see them"....WHAT???

[blam]

" but I never thought to ask her about her past while she was alive, and now she's gone forever."

I think that happens to us all. My grandfather spend a year in prison during the 20's for making 'moonshine' during prohibition. I should have talked with him about that. His name was Otis Strength, my mom's father.