IRAQ MINISTER SAYS SADDAM WMD CAREFULLY HIDDEN

Reuters ^ | 1/29/04

[areafiftyone]

(Updates with comments on Saddam's trial, Iraq's unity)

By Anna Mudeva

SOFIA, Jan 29 (Reuters) - Iraq's foreign minister said on Thursday Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction, which inspectors have failed to find, were carefully hidden but Hoshiyar Zebari said he was confident they could be discovered.

"I have every belief that some of these weapons could be found as we move forward," Zebari, an Iraqi Kurd, told a news conference in Sofia. "They have been hidden in certain areas. The system of hiding was very sophisticated."

The United States and Britain cited Iraq's possession of chemical and biological arms as their main reason for invading the country last March and toppling Saddam. But no such weapons have so far come to light despite intensive searches.

Former chief U.S. weapons hunter David Kay said on Wednesday "we were almost all wrong" about the issue and it was "highly unlikely that there were large stockpiles of deployed militarised chemical and biological weapons" in Iraq.

But Zebari, on a visit to Bulgaria, said: "We as Iraqis have seen Saddam Hussein develop, manufacture and use these weapons of mass destruction against us. He hasn't denied that."

Zebari was apparently referring to the use of chemical weapons by Saddam's forces against Iraqi Kurdish villages in the late 1980s.

He reiterated the position of Iraq's U.S.-appointed Governing Council that Saddam, accused of sending thousands of Iraqis to mass graves, should be tried by an Iraqi court.

The former Iraqi president, who was given prisoner of war status, was captured in mid-December near his home town of Tikrit, having evaded U.S. forces since the American military launched its war in Iraq with a March 20 attack targeting him.

Zebari said Saddam's trial should be fair and transparent because it would be a test for Iraq's new rulers to prove their adherence to the supremacy of law.

TERRITORIAL INTEGRITY

Asked to comment on Turkey's fears Iraqi Kurds might seek a breakaway state, Zebari said there were no plans to divide Iraq.

"We have proved over the last nine months that all the Iraqis from the North to the South are committed to the national unity...No group, no party has any plans to undermine Iraq's unity or territorial integrity," he said.

U.S. President George W. Bush said on Wednesday he was also committed to a "territorially intact" Iraq.

Turkish officials have been concerned Iraqi Kurds might press for an independent state, which could boost independence claims by Turkey's own restive Kurdish minority.

The Kurds, who fought with the United States to topple Saddam, are one of Iraq's best organised ethnic groups after enjoying U.S-protected autonomy since the 1991 Gulf War. They have presented a plan to the Iraqi Governing Council that grants significant autonomy to the Kurdish region.

Zebari did not rule out the federalisation of Iraq as long as it did not violate territorial unity and added only the Iraqi people could choose the country's future political system.

[Solson]

Actually, if the stockpiles are really gone, and the stories prove true about the scientists not spending the $$ towards WMD, then it may be. But, if Saddam was simply bluffing for a number of years, he did a damn good job of ALMOST waiting out the international community.

Fortunately GW Bush stopped the games and dealt with the situation.

[HankReardon]

Brace yourself for what we hear when a large enough cache of WMD's are found in Iraq that cannot be ignored, they'll be cries of, "The Bushies planted the WMD's!" And some people will believe it, simply because they'd want it to be true, that's all the intelligence info they need.

[Coop]

It does make the case that this was an intelligence failure. Kay saw that, Condi Rice sees that. Most rational people agree.

I'm quite rational, and you have not made any case at all. You claim there's evidence pointing to no stockpiles existing. Please lay out said evidence in a convincing manner. Thank you.

[need_a_screen_name]

Well, maybe they'll turn up. But then one of history's biggest mysteries will be why didn't Saddam use them. It could inspire historians and writers for decades.

I don't see any mystery at all. If they were used, they would have been nuked back into the stoneage. They know that. Plus, they weapons could have been so well hidden that they would be inaccessible at the time.

[Solson]

No, I've never claimed there is evidence to "no stockpiles existing." I've claimed that no stockpiles have been found and the fact nothing has been found is an intelligence failure. Kay came to the same conclusion. Condi Rice has come to the same conclusion.

Apparently you see NO intelligence failures in ANYTHING regarding WMD and Iraq.

[HankReardon]

Since we do not know what was being done with the WMD while the UN, France and Germany had us stalled in a diplomatic quagmire THAT is the intelligence failure. We did not know about the corruption in the UN "oil for food program" while it was going on, another intelligence failure! I believe he had them, what he did with them while he ignored 17 UN resolutions and during years of the debating society's debating, what was he doing with the WMD's? Was the Iraqi flagged cargo ship circling in the Indian Ocean anything? A myth?

[Coop]

No, I've never claimed there is evidence to "no stockpiles existing."

Oops.

To: Coop
And I've read the Kay reports. Plain and simple. The stockpiles projected before the war have not surfaced and the available evidence points to these stockpiles not existing.

That is a very important intelligence failure due to Tenet's reliance upon UN inspectors, satellites, and intercepts and Tenet's failure to have folks on the ground.

240 posted on 01/29/2004 9:36:41 AM PST by Solson (Our work is the presentation of our capabilities. - Von Goethe)

[Physicist]

No, I've never claimed there is evidence to "no stockpiles existing."

Please clarify your response #175 to me, because that is what I took away from it.

[Solson]

Fine..I'll reword. The available evidence has provided no indication the stockpiles exist.

But, in your game of moving the goalposts, you still fail to understand, admit, or otherwise see there were intelligence failures. Kay saw them, Condi Rice see them, and most rational people agree.

[Solson]

See #269.

[Coop]

Fine..I'll reword. The available evidence has provided no indication the stockpiles exist.

And time and again on this thread I've shown claims like this to be downright silly.

But, in your game of moving the goalposts

I've moved nothing. I fear you're out of your league here, my friend.

[Physicist]

The available evidence has provided no indication the stockpiles exist.

In fact, that was the premise for my post #245.

[Solson]

And time and again on this thread I've shown claims like this to be downright silly.

So you disagree with Kay's statements of yesterday?

[Coop]

I agree with many of Kay's statements from yesterday - especially the detailed ones. I do not agree with a blanket statement of "this was a [insert adjective here] intelligence failure." By him or anyone. It's not accurate.

But Dr. Kay does a fine job of clarifying exactly what he means, no matter what the headlines imply.

[ConservativeLawyer]

Did you watch the testimony?

Unfortuantely, I was only able to watch parts of it as I was at work. Thanks for the information, though. I was unaware of those findings.

[SunkenCiv]

Of course Iraq has WMDs. There's no credible doubt about it. There are those who have been feigning ESP all along (before, during, and after the liberation of Iraq) saying that no WMDs would be found. Or perhaps they weren't feigning ESP, and were just liars...

If The Bush Administration Lied About WMD,
So Did These People
compiled by John Hawkins

"The community of nations may see more and more of the very kind of threat Iraq poses now: a rogue state with weapons of mass destruction, ready to use them or provide them to terrorists. If we fail to respond today, Saddam and all those who would follow in his footsteps will be emboldened tomorrow." -- Bill Clinton in 1998

"In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including Al Qaeda members, though there is apparently no evidence of his involvement in the terrible events of September 11, 2001. It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons. Should he succeed in that endeavor, he could alter the political and security landscape of the Middle East, which as we know all too well affects American security." -- Hillary Clinton, October 10, 2002

"Iraq does pose a serious threat to the stability of the Persian Gulf and we should organize an international coalition to eliminate his access to weapons of mass destruction. Iraq's search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to completely deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power." -- Al Gore, 2002

[many others]

Panel: Iraq Data Wasn't Hyped
by Ed Johnson, AP
9-11-03
[no link]

Prime Minister Tony Blair's government did not deliberately "sex up" a dossier on Iraqi weapons by including a disputed claim about chemical and biological weapons, Parliament's Intelligence and Security Committee ruled Thursday... A separate inquiry being led by Lord Hutton also is looking into the issue as it relates to the apparent suicide of arms expert David Kelly, who was named by officials as the possible source of a British Broadcasting Corp. report alleging the government exaggerated the threat from Iraq. The government denies the claims, which sparked a bitter feud between Blair's office and the British Broadcasting Corp. BBC reporter Andrew Gilligan subsequently said his source had blamed Blair's communications chief, Alastair Campbell, for insisting on including the claim. The Intelligence and Security Committee rejected those charges, and accepted the government's assertion that the Joint Intelligence Committee, which prepared the dossier, did not come under political pressure... The House of Commons Foreign Affairs Committee, in a report issued July 7, also absolved the government and Campbell.

A Question of Proof
editorial
New Scientist

In November 2002, the Security Council told Iraq to provide such verification of face the consequences. Even if Iraq really did give up its weapons, where was the proof? It could have supplied documents, dug up destroyed armaments, and allowed scientists to talk.

from the June 7 2003 issue, it has a reverse spin goin'. The subtitle is "If there were no weapons, why didn't Saddam let his scientists talk?" But the editorial talks mostly about the partisan harping on the supposedly faked evidence. Of course the evidence for Iraqi WMD is real.

Nuke program parts unearthed in Baghdad back yard
Mike Boettcher,
David Ensor,
and producer Maria Fleet

Experts said the documents and pieces Obeidi gave the United States were the critical information and parts to restart a nuclear weapons program, and would have saved Saddam's regime several years and as much as hundreds of millions of dollars for research. David Albright, who was a U.N. nuclear weapons inspector in Iraq in the 1990s, said inspectors "understood that Iraq probably hid centrifuge documents, may have had components, and so it is very important that those items be found." ...Obeidi said he felt unsafe in Iraq after the U.S.-led invasion and that he was getting pressure from different corners of the country. He also said other Iraqi scientists were watching to see if he was safe after he cooperated with the U.S. government. Now that he and his family are safely out of Iraq, Obeidi said he believes other scientists would come forward with other components of Iraq's weapons program.

Iraqi uranium found but concerns remain
by Rob Edwards
16:56 23 June 03

On Thursday, IAEA inspectors will complete their first mission to Iraq since the war. But they have not been allowed by the US to check the safety and security of these radiation sources, which are used in hospitals and factories or kept in storage. Many of the sources contain potentially lethal amounts of caesium 137, cobalt 60 and other radioactive isotopes. If stolen, they could be combined with a conventional explosive to make a bomb that would contaminate a city centre. They could also pose a serious threat to public health if mislaid or mishandled. Looting has been repeatedly reported at the biggest radiation store, the Tuwaitha Nuclear Research Centre near Baghdad. Doctors in the area say they are seeing dozens of people every day with symptoms of radiation poisoning such as diarrhoea, rashes and nose bleeds... According to the IAEA director general, Mohamed ElBaradei, "most" of the uranium is accounted for, though he is still waiting for the final report from his inspectors. The material has been kept under IAEA seal since 1991 to prevent it from being manufactured into high-enriched uranium for atomic bombs.

Saddam's Bombmaker: France Helped Baghdad Get Nukes
Friday Jan. 24, 2002

According to Dr. Khidir Hamza, who ran Saddam's nuclear bombmaking program in the early 1990's, Iraq's Osirak nuclear reactor was built by the French. When the Israelis determined that the reactor's real purpose was to make nuclear weapons, they destroyed it in a 1981 bombing raid. "From the moment Osirak was hit we knew we had to try another method to get the bomb," Dr. Hamza told the Washington Times in Sept. 2002. The year before Dr. Hamza confirmed that the Osirak reactor was never intended to be anything but a nuclear bombmaking plant.

Saddam's Bombmaker by Khidhir Hamza with Jeff Stein

Amazon's search engine turned up this new ISBN for the title, but not surprisingly it was NOT the first entry.

[HankReardon]

The facts intelligemce agencies gather are facts that are not easily available, there is always attempts to keep them from them. Probably almost never is any intelligence report a complete, 100%, iron clad word for word absolute Truth. Great job on Iraq, CIA! Saddam knew what was being said about his WMD's, the burden of proof was on him.

[Dave S]

Would it have been more proper to wait for such a good reason, a really good justification to go into Iraq and take Saddam out? hey, we found WMD's because of the Iraqi War, Lybia comes to mind

I have no problem with the war. I thought it was the right thing to do and I still do. I'm just realistic enough to realize that we were probably wrong and that there were no stockpiles of WMD in Iraq. With a nut case like Saddam, its better to be wrong than be sorry. That still doesnt mean that there has to be WMD stockpiles just because Bush said so based on intel.

[Dave S]

The only thing we can accurately say is that any presumed WMD storage sites proved empty upon being searched. That does not mean the intel failed. It could simply mean the perishable intel was not acted upon in a timely manner.

Or it could mean it was never there.

[Dave S]

My concern with this issue is the shallow reasoning being used for some to emphatically state that WMDs don't exist. I certainly don't know what happened to them. The lack of humility in such matters is interesting.

You dont think there is some similar lack of humility and shallow thinking among those who know for a fact that the WMD are buried in Syria or Lebbanon or under a house in Baghdad. That they were given to Syria or given to Iran or given to Alqaeda, whoever. Unfortunately they cant provide GPS coordinates. LOL.