Open space mission total waste of money

Aberdeen American News ^ | Jan. 25, 2004 | Donna Marmorstein

[RadioAstronomer]

stupid complacency and attempts at fraud

I see you have a high regard for our scientific and engineering community.

[RadioAstronomer]

I agree. If you notice I said probably, not never. :-)

[Mr. Mojo]

the possibility that there may still be solid mass inside Uranus (or Neptune, Jupiter, Saturn), even if it is otherwise gaseous.

Liquid nitrogen down there, if memory serves. .....But your point is well taken -- never say never.

[ambrose]

As for Venus, the Soviets were landing probes there back in the 1970s, which managed to return data and pictures for nearly an hour before going offline. I don't think it is too far fetched that we could build more powerful heat shields so that a surface visit could last for a much longer period of time.

Another possibility which could allow colonization of Venus would be some sort of method to breakup the cloud cover of Venus, which is responsible for the 800 degree greenhouse effect. Obviously, the technology to do this isn't with us yet, but I like to think about such possibilities.

[RadioAstronomer]

As for Venus, the Soviets were landing probes there back in the 1970s, which managed to return data and pictures for nearly an hour before going offline. I don't think it is too far fetched that we could build more powerful heat shields so that a surface visit could last for a much longer period of time.

Sigh! Please go back and re-read my post.

"(with the exception of Venus)"

[marron]

My contribution to this thread: 35 years after Columbus, Cortes, Lewis and Clark etc, thousands of trappers and settlers were following them on their own dime.

This is what happens when private money gets into the game. That won't happen until the technology matures a little and we start seeing some interesting core samples indicating the presence of who-knows-what. You are right, the explosion into space won't happen until that day. The best we can do in the meantime is keep pushing the technology forward, and start gathering those samples.

Robots can do the science, and 1% of the cost.

I don't think we're necessarily at odds here. I would like to see a series of robot probes checking out likely looking moons and asteroids. We need to be able to do some seismic surveying. If that can be done robotically, fine, if we need men with "boots on the ground(?)" then they will need to be there. As the samples get more interesting, and the technology advances, at some point the two curves cross and suddenly you have Exxon launching their own probes. Or whatever.

[ambrose]

I see.. you're not a Venus doubter.

I'd like to see another probe to Venus. I doubt the air bag method would be feasible there since they'd likely melt before the probe ever hit the ground.

[Mr. Mojo]

However, the moons of those planets are truly inviting. :-)

"All these worlds are yours, except Europa. Attempt no landings there." - The Star Child :)

[DeepDish]

I heard of a theory that bacteria that utilize co2 could be seeded in the atmosphere of Venus. It seems to to fall apart when I consider what would happen when the bacteria end up fried in the lower atmosphere thereby returning their bodies to the atmosphere.

[Smokin' Joe]

So I'll support a manned Mars mission, sure thing. Just as soon as the private moon bases are paying for themselves.

By the time the moon bases are paying for themselves, the moon will be pushing for independence, and throwing rocks if it doesn't get it!

My chief concern is that we will have lost our ability, technically and economically, which will leave other nations on Earth ahead of us, in particular, the Chinese. Who controls the seas will ultimately control the land, and this planetary island is no different. If you control and militarize space, who can do anything about it who is not there already?

If we are to remain first-world on our planet, we had best be up to speed off of our planet.

[RadioAstronomer]

I too would like to send another probe there. It will be a while before humans can set foot on it however. I wonder if AI in robust machinery will play apart in future exploration.

[Smokin' Joe]

I agree wholeheartedly. Looking at photos and reading sample descriptions is no substitute for being there.

[RadioAstronomer]

:-)

Ganymede has always been a favorite of mine. It would be worth my life to step foot there.

[RadioAstronomer]

I am off for the evening as well. Nite all.

[Mr. Mojo]

I'm an Io fan myself. .....although it's not exactly a hospitable place.

What interests you about Ganymede? And how about the Saturnian moon, Titan? ....and Neptune's moon, Triton? Those places are pretty cool too.

[Cincinatus' Wife]

When Kennedy announced a return to the Moon, the people were behind him - then the price was announced and like now, the polls dropped off. Leadership moves great and necessary goals along. Bush is a leader. The naysayers are partisans and/or unimaginative about the true importance of using resources off planet. To be able to do this will facilitate our expansion into the universe, exploding technology and space exploration. Up until now we've gone and looked, now we will use resources. The Moon is man's passageway into the solar system.

[DeepDish]

Titan - What We Know:
Titan is the only moon in the solar system with a thick atmosphere surrounding it.
The atmospheric pressure near Titan's surface is 60% greater than Earth at sea level.
The atmospheric temperature near Titan's surface is 95K (-178 C or -288 F).
As on Earth, the most abundant gas in Titan's atmosphere is nitrogen.
Methane is the second most abundant gas; more than a dozen other gases are present.
The thickness (extent) of Titan's atmosphere is about 10 times that of Earth.
A thick haze at 200 km (120 mi) altitude hides Titan's surface at visible wavelengths.
Titan's diameter is 5150 km (3200 mi), about 40% as large as Earth.
Titan is the second largest moon in the solar system; only Jupiter's Ganymede is larger.
Titan and Ganymede are both larger than the planets Mercury and Pluto.
Titan apparently keeps its same face toward Saturn as it orbits the planet.
Titan orbits Saturn at a distance of 1,221,830 km (759,210 mi) from Saturn's center.
Titan orbits Saturn in just under 16 days (orbital period = 15.9454 days).
Oceans (or lakes) of liquid ethane may cover a large fraction of Titan's surface.
Titan's surface is non-uniform at radar wavelengths.
Titan has a surface feature (continent?) that is bright at infrared wavelengths

Got this here:

http://www.ssd.rl.ac.uk/news/cassini/titan.html

I knew that it had a substantial atmosphere but did not know that it was thicker that Earth's

[SpaceBar]

You are questioning the relative merits of research which can propel the US far into the future versus sitting on our arses accepting the status quo.

Did you have to take engineering economic analysis as part of your geochem curriculum? Every engineering project public or private undergoes a detailed analysis of costs and benefits in light of the time value of money. It is something that engineers especially those who work in private industry are accutely aware of. Physics, chem, math and other pure science majors don't have to take even an introductory course and most opt not to because it is both demanding, and seemingly off the path of pure science. But engineers do. It is required at both the undergraduate and graduate level. Pure scientists scoff at the notion of considering such pedestrian concepts as money where you only round to two decimal places, rarely get to use scientific notation, and don't need solutions to the hypergeometric differential equation to understand. Thus they feel immune to it. Besides, the bean counters take care of that stuff anyway, just as long as the grant money lasts. Modern space travel and exploration is applied engineering. It is an engineering project, not a "science project", and in the true spirit of engineering projects needs to be considered using the bottom line. I'm sorry to pop your bubble but the crustal abundance of oxygen isotopes or a pretty xrd of montmorillonite ain't the end all be all. Things cost. That's just a simple fact of the real world. If you weren't so hung up on your geochemist shoulder chip, you might see a real world instead of one that owes you a living in the form of research grants. You aren't the only one who knows who Goldberg was, or can use Phreeq, or knows about lattice packing, or how to prepare an xrd sample. There is a word for financial undertakings that have no demonstrable downstream revenue that offsets costs either known or reasonalby conjectured. They are called hobbies. Another thing that I find disingenous to those who have to foot the bill is all this romantic talk of space colonies and so forth. C'mon people, you don't get it? The exploration of space since the Russians put up Sputnik is all about the militarization of space, plain and simple. If they'd at least come clean and say that without all the romantacising to enchant the taxpaying public, I'd be a bit less skeptical. But that's all it is, a military engineering project. It just happens to be up there and not down here. When the spot price of cataclastic brecciated basalt appears on the London Metals Market I will think of investing. But I reserve the right to invest or not.

[Travis McGee]

I can't wait for the film of you smelling rocks on Mars. LOL.

Yawn. Try harder.

[Travis McGee]

We now have a much broader mission to establish a base, harvest the moons resources,

Great! If it will pay, it will be no problem for private backers to create the Lunar Mining Company on the model of the East India or Hudson Bay Company.

But a hundred billion to gather more moon rocks on the public taxpayer? I don't think so.