Let me see if I have this straight...

Yahoo News ^

[RebelDawg]

OK, let me see if I have this straight. Corporations have been replacing American engineers and software developers with cheap foreign labor for years now and all of the sudden we are worried that there are not enough Americans enrolling in the Computer Science and Engineering fields of study in college... Go figure. Perhaps if there was an incentive to enter these fields,like the possibility of actually obtaining a job after college, then maybe we wouldn't be facing this so called labor shortage. Corporations have done this to themselves but yet they have things like this to say:

"The National Science Board and a think tank of tech executives recently warned that the economic vitality of America is threatened by a lack of U.S. graduates in science and engineering."

No, kidding? You mean that when our children see their highly paid and highly educated engineer and software developer parents put out of work by corrupt corporations hiring H1-Bs and shipping jobs over seas where they can pay employees two dollars an hour that they lose any and all incentive to enter those related fields of study? Go figure!

"The bigger issue, say the NSB and CSPP, is that America may be losing ground to foreign nations that are doing a better job of educating their youth in science and engineering. As a result, they are better able to compete against American ingenuity and innovation."

Hogwash! What does better educating the youth of foreign countries have to do with competititon when we have millions of Americans whom are already educated that cannot find employment in these very same fields! It is not about foreign education it is about foreign wages. As long as corporations want to pay foreign wages for engineers and developers then America will see a shortage of graduates in these fields. It is as simpe as that.

Are we the United States of America or have we all given up and agreed to live under the rule of some supranational global corporatist government?

[looscnnn]

"A job is a business arrangement, it has no substance and can't be shipped anywhere. The conditions of that arrangement are governed by supply and demand and the parties grasp and understanding of reality."

In the case of the IBM programmers, the supply and demand of the jobs did not change, just the location of where the job is to be done at (India). For autoworkers in Flint, MI in the 1980s, the supply and demand did not change, just the location (Mexico and southern states). Face it, your thinking is flawed. You must have attended one of those colleges that teach you how to "operate in the world".

"Thinking comes first. W/o that all else is futile and the pay will be low. Stability and success also depends on it."

I think Mike Tyson during his prime is a counter point, he was paid well and did not do a lot of thinking. Granted this has come back to haunt him, but still it is counter to what you claim. Also, I would like you go get a job as a surgeon and when they ask about experience and education, just tell them that you can think. Also, tell them that "thinking comes first" and see how quickly you get laughed out of the office.

"The real question that should be asked is why does anyone pay that much to a place that will let them graduate holding the notion that the world owes them a pay scale?"

They don't hold that notion, they do it because a most good paying jobs require a degree.

[kegler4]

I can't absolutely testify as to the quality of all the teaching my daughter gets but I can tell you she's at least as literate as I was at her age, and I can also tell you that she's taking stuff you couldn't even take when I was in school. For instance, she'll have more than a semester of college credit. That wasn't avilable when I went to the same high school she attends. And believe me, this is NOT one of the highest rated schools in the state. There are some things I definitely do not like about the school.

I looked at the chart you pointed me to, and while I would like to see the U.S. doing better than average, it is average in all three categories. You also realize, I assume, that a number of those countries above us put significantly more money per child into public education, not something that most conservatives think the U.S. should do. In fact, some of those countries above us are downright socialistic, almost even communistic. Still, they must be doing something right.

AND some of those countries test only their top and maybe middle tiers of students, while the U.S. tests nearly everybody, including kids who will never get above elementary school because of disabilities. In other words, these tests don't always compare apples to apples.

This is not to say U.S. public schools are the greatest. There are some really bad ones. But often what kids get out of it depends on how hard they try and how much support they get from home.

[looscnnn]

"Nothing was exported. You see exports have a price and their is no price on a job. The word export is used by folks to obfuscate the facts of the matter to make it look like a theft and give away program."

Wrong. You can export information from a database to a file, there is no price for that action. Export is to move something from one place to another. You are confusing the movement of goods, which require shipping (price), with the actual meaning of export. Knowledge can be exported with out a price, teaching someone from another country how to do something.

"Yes, it decreases to zero and someone in supply comes in as a replacement."

What I meant was if your production decreases 15% do you get a salary cut of 15% (if you are not on commision)? No it does not.

[looscnnn]

"That's not what I said."

You said "College should be a place where students learn how to think, do and operate in the world. It's not a place to learn fixed job skills to exist in some theoretical high paying niche forever." in a previous post. "Fixed job skills" for some jobs can only be taught in college.

[looscnnn]

I don't doubt the education your daughter gets. I was more literate at the age of 9, than some girls I know are at that age. Their parents work with them and the girls try to learn. My younger brother did not apply himself, so he is less literate than myself. I had the opportunity for college credit in high school, but did not take it.

I agree that there needs to be a desire to learn and parents need to be involved in the students education, but then you I start to wonder how much of the education is obtained through the school compared to what is obtained through the parents helping the student? I noticed that there are students that excel in terrible schools due to parents being involved in their education. Just some food for thought.

As far a more money in education, I don't think it will matter without reforms. Like a car, how long do you keep throwing money at it before you decide to do something about it? I would like to see the US at or very near the top of the list.

[Grit]

They can rehire locally.

but how about cutting the pay of the CEO, CFO, etc. to keep costs down.

Be sure to send those and all other suggestions regarding running their business to their customer relations hot line. (Probably outsourced in India)

How many of the US jobs could have been retained if they cut the CEO, CFO, etc. salaries by 10%?

How many jobs could have been saved if they cut the CEO's salary by 90%? No one is stopping anyone from running their company like that. In fact, Ben & Jerry's (I believe) had a policy that no officer would earn more than 10 times their lowest paid worker. They had the best CEO that 50K would buy.

The more people that are unemployed, the more we have to pay for with our tax dollars.

What percentage of the workers that lose their jobs move on to better jobs? Different jobs? Start their own biz and employ 50-100 people. Suggesting that these people are going straight from IBM to the soup kitchen is absurd. (If they did, IBM was right to drop them)

[looscnnn]

"Suggesting that these people are going straight from IBM to the soup kitchen is absurd. (If they did, IBM was right to drop them)"

What kind of crap is that? To say that IBM was right to drop someone if they have the inability to find another job is wrong. Some of these people may not have the capital or the ability to start a business. Face it, some people are not cut out for running their own business. Not knowing the area, IBM could the only major employer in the area and there are no other jobs available in a realively reasonable distance. Some people can't move 100+ miles to get a new job. It is a cold hard fact that some people do end up going to soup kitchen.

How many went to jobs that paid 1/4 of what they used to make, just to put food on the table?

How many jobs going out of the country will it take before people really start to say "Sh*t, what the heck happened?"

[verity]

See #53.

[superloser]

Part of the explanation is that Americans in general refuse to practice in inner cities or rural areas.

For me, it was the $100k price tag for Medical School.

4 year degree in comp sci was $12k

Go figure.

[looscnnn]

"Nothing was exported. You see exports have a price and their is no price on a job. The word export is used by folks to obfuscate the facts of the matter to make it look like a theft and give away program."

A couple more examples:

-cause to spread in another part of the world; "The Russians exported Marxism to Africa" http://www.cogsci.princeton.edu/cgi-bin/webwn?stage=1&word=export

-To send things to another country. http://www.learningonthemove.co.uk/gloss.html

[looscnnn]

"Part of the explanation is that Americans in general refuse to practice in inner cities or rural areas."

Could be the insurance premiums and the lawsuits make it too costly.

[Grit]

To say that IBM was right to drop someone if they have the inability to find another job is wrong

How did these people get the IBM job?

Some of these people may not have the capital or the ability to start a business.

These are alleged "good paying" jobs from which they are being let go, so capital should not be a problem. Ability is another matter, I guess.

How many jobs going out of the country will it take before people really start to say "Sh*t, what the heck happened?"

Is it really any comfort to the guy who lost his job if the job was re-staffed in the US. How does that put food on his table?

Your entire argument could be summed up with this quote from your reply: " Some people can't"

I don't mean to be callous, but it sure sounds like the people you are talking about (unable to find a job, no capital, no ability, can't move to find a new job) are not the kind of people that I would want working for my company.

[spunkets]

"In the case of the IBM programmers, the supply and demand of the jobs did not change.

It did change! There's probably a slight increase in demand and at least twice as many programers. Some programers made IBM a better offer. Same with the auto companies; they got a better offer.

" Face it, your thinking is flawed."

Sure it is.

" You must have attended one of those colleges that teach you how to "operate in the world"."

Not really. The profs weren't that good and some were incompetent. Books are a more certain source of knowledge. Try Friedman and Hayek; they wrote excellent books on economics.

"still it is counter to what you claim.

Mr. Tyson was a showman. He never put any effort into thinking, let alone paying attn to anyone that might have tried to get him to do so.

"Also, I would like you go get a job as a surgeon and when they ask about experience and education, just tell them that you can think. Also, tell them that "thinking comes first" and see how quickly you get laughed out of the office.

Don't be ridiculous; surgeons are required to obtain a license before they hang a single. That requires experience and education. However, the license does not indicate the quality of the surgeon. It only means the surgeon met the requirements.

"... they do it because a most good paying jobs require a degree."

The degree is a license to operate anywhere they are welcome. In general it's their performance in the real world that gets them the income. Many big buck programers that will never lose their marketability are a mixed bag of bachelors degrees and nondegreed folks. No one owes them a pay based on their education.

[looscnnn]

"How did these people get the IBM job?"

I am just responding to your comment "IBM was right to drop them" if they went straight to a soup kitchen.

"These are alleged "good paying" jobs from which they are being let go, so capital should not be a problem."

Just because they are "good paying" jobs does not mean they will have capital for a business. Some people do live beyond their means.

"Is it really any comfort to the guy who lost his job if the job was re-staffed in the US."

If they deserved to be fired, due to violation of policy/procedures, etc., then no. Should they get any comfort if they deserved to be fired? No.

"I don't mean to be callous, but it sure sounds like the people you are talking about (unable to find a job, no capital, no ability, can't move to find a new job) are not the kind of people that I would want working for my company."

Do you make it a prerequisite that new employees have capital before getting hired? I doubt that, you care more about whether the person can do the job. If you do, then you are probably hiring the wrong people.

I never said that they had no ability. If they are unable to find a job, then that would mean that you were not hiring. I would not blame you for not hiring some one that could not move to a reasonable distance from your company, but the fact is that some people have significant others that do have jobs and moving would mean they would have to quit their job.

[Grit]

Some people do live beyond their means.

Very true. And sometimes with tragic results, like going from a six figure income to a soup kitchen.

...but the fact is that some people have significant others that do have jobs and moving would mean they would have to quit their job.

I would assume that the significant other's job in this hypothetical situation would keep one out of the bread lines as well.

[TLI]

Grow up.

I have been hit by the IT crunch for about 6 years now, am I grown up enough YET?

[DustyMoment]

"Any RF/microwave EE's have any career advice, besides "don't"? Will 5+ years experiance as an engineering technician count when I get my degree, if you were doing the hiring?"

Working as an engineering tech won't help unless you were involved in RF/microwave engineering as an engineering tech. Even then, it will not do a lot to boost your standing as a new grad engineer. Most of the folks you will be competing for jobs against may have some similar experience, so it simply ends up saying that you are familiar with the engineering and lab process/environment, but it doesn't do a whole heck of a lot to prove that you are a better RF/microwave engineer.

W/respect to RF/microwave engineering as a career choice, a great deal depends upon how you choose to employ your skills and in which part of what industry. Government communications is probably the best source of employment for these skills, developing communications products for use by the military. Commercial telecom and communications companies are still in the dumper and work on new products utilizing these technologies is still relatively depressed. Hopefully, this year will see some improvements and an upswing in product devbelopment in these markets but, so far, there isn't any evidence that anything is ocurring yet.

If you want to design ovens using microwave technologies, I strongly recommend you also study Chinese, Japanese, Hindi or Pashtun. Not too many American companies are designing their own microwave ovens these days and most of it can be done from industry "cookbooks".

Best of luck.

[DustyMoment]

Well, golly-whillickers, I just have to admit that you out-thunked me on everything. You have all the answers, despite the fact that you are all over the board on this issue.

Tell you what. Let's call it a draw. I'm not going to convince you of anything and you clearly think that the rest of us on this thread are dolts; even though many of us here have experienced the very thing that you claim isn't happening and/or only happens to the bottomfeeders (My interpretation of your thoughts) in a given industry.

God willing, you will never experience what it feels like for your job to be terminated and someone in Mumbai hired as your replacement.

[Reelect President Dubya]

I have been hit by the IT crunch for about 6 years now, am I grown up enough YET?

Take less pay.

[looscnnn]

"I would assume that the significant other's job in this hypothetical situation would keep one out of the bread lines as well."

Might, but still might not enough to pay mortgages, loans, etc. But of course that does not matter to you, you would not be hiring them.