[Southack]

"by applying systematic pressure to all of the factors that encourage the Illegals to violate our laws and sovereignty, we can win early victories that generate and sustain a momentum whereby the problem starts to solve itself.

The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative."

Of course, this is precisely what Bush's new immigration plan *does*, except of course that it accomplishes this key goal in a non-obvious manner (hence, unnecessary and hostile reaction to said plan).

For instance, Bush's plan offers a carrot/reward to illegals. If they register with the federal government, then they get a blue card, can't be hassled by INS raids, can get a bank account, can transfer money back to their relatives without paying outrageous bribes, become eligible for tax refunds (some of their payroll taxes are refundable), can return to their home countries on vacations without fearing yet another illegal border crossing, and they become immune to the deportation blackmail scams of illegal employers as well as other illegals.

But Bush's carrot/reward to illegals comes with a catch or two. For one thing, they have to *register* with our government to get that reward. Registration changes everything, too. Our status quo *without* registering illegals is that our government doesn't know, institutionally, where all 8 million illegals live and work.

However, once they register for Bush's reward/carrot, poof, we suddenly know who they are, where they live, and who they work for. Now the INS can track them and the IRS can tax them. Like I said, *registration* changes everything.

And there's more...

Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

But by returning to their home countries voluntarily, they have just done what would take an army of law enforcement to otherwise do by force: they will have deported themselves.

Considering that the 8 million illegals are a larger problem in size/scope than the relocations by force of 6 million Jews in Europe during WW2, this accomplishment of convincing illegals to self-deport themselves voluntarily is not insignificant.

In fact, it is brilliant.

President Bush's plan, once it is finally understood by most radio talk show hosts, will one day be lauded for delivering on precisely your above demands for convincing illegals to go home on their own.

[Sabertooth]

The key is to get the Illegals to leave our country on their own initiative."

Of course, this is precisely what Bush's new immigration plan *does*, except of course that it accomplishes this key goal in a non-obvious manner (hence, unnecessary and hostile reaction to said plan).

No, it doesn't.

The President proposes that the Federal Government offer temporary worker status to undocumented men and women now employed in the United States and to those in foreign countries who have been offered employment here. The workers under temporary status must pay a one-time fee to register in the program, abide by the rules, and return home after their period of work expires. There would be an opportunity for renewal. In the future, only people outside the U.S. may join the temporary worker program, and there will be an orderly system in place to address the needs of workers and companies.
Fact Sheet: Fair and Secure Immigration Reform
For Immediate Release
Office of the Press Secretary
January 7, 2004

The legalized-Illegals of the Bush Amnesty would only be required to go home if they don't get a renewal of their blue cards. Do you honestly believe that if the President won't make Illegals go home to get into the so-called "guest worker" program, that he'll make them go home for renewal, after they've been legalized?

Furthermore, this President doesn't deport many Illegals now, and still releases Illegals with standing deportation orders on OR. That's why we have 100,000 more absconders now than we did two years ago.

There are upwards of 400,000 individuals who have received final deportation orders that are hiding in our communities. Their appeals have run out, and those orders tell them, “it’s time to go.” But, the Bureau of Immigration and Customs Enforcement can’t find them! What’s worse, 80,000 of those people have criminal convictions, just like Miguel Angelo Gordoba! They were in the hands of our law enforcement. Can you imagine opening the doors of our prisons and letting 80,000 criminals run back into the streets? Well folks, that’s exactly what has happened with these 80,000 criminal aliens.

What’s more, 3,800 of those people with final deportation orders are from countries with a known Al-Qaeda presence.
Statement of the Honorable Charlie Norwood
The CLEAR Act of 2003
July 9, 2003

Compare these figures to those of two years ago...

The Justice Department's decision to track down and deport 6,000 Middle Eastern aliens who've been ordered to leave the country attracted howls of protest from all the usual places earlier this week. The government has a list of more than 300,000 deportable immigrants.
Deportation Disorder
National Review Online
John J. Miller & Ramesh Ponnuru | January 10th, 2002

These are Illegals who've lost their deportation hearings, and the President still hasn't recognized that they are flight risk.

Why would the President's lackluster approach to enforcing the law against Illegals suddenly change after their legaliization?

[ovrtaxt]

Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

Unless they have a baby.

Just a microcosm of the whole plan. It's too easy to 'work the system' here. Welfare and all public assistance currently available to illegals needs to be ended. That would do more to remove the incentive for these lawbreakers than anything Bush has proposed.

The truth is, he is kissing Fox's butt over this issue. Why? I have yet to figure that out.

[AzJohn]

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A little over half of the illegals we have now are people who came here legally originally and overstayed their visas. I'm skeptical that the voluntary departures you describe will usually happen. I think we'll need some additional interior enforcement, although there is a possibility that might be incorporated as this goes through Congress.

[Mamzelle]

re: Bush's plan requires them to voluntarily return to their home countries after three years in order to apply for additional time here in the U.S.

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all. Rather than forfeit their legal right to live and work here, as well as lose their refundable taxes, most illegals will opt to return back to their home countries in order to be able to apply for more legal time here.

A Bush-supporter friend of mine is using this argument to try to get me over being upset with that "willing worker and willing employer" line.

Trouble is, this three-year thing has to be enforced.

Will it be enforced? Do you believe it?

[ninenot]

Actually, the requirement is for the newly-amnestied illegal to return "at some time" during the first three years. And the blue card is permanently renewable.

Once it is understood that this is the end of H1B limitations, and that using foreign workers for ANY job in the USA, there will be a revolution.

Programmers from India are happy with $25K/year. I am sure that many of our "leading Companies" will be happy with that, too.

But the banks won't--because they will be sitting on one hell of a lot of foreclosed homes.

[judgeandjury]

However, once they register for Bush's reward/carrot, poof, we suddenly know who they are, where they live, and who they work for. Now the INS can track them and the IRS can tax them. Like I said, *registration* changes everything.

If I were an employer who knowingly had illegal alien workers on my payroll, and I were now required to adhere to all employment and wage laws in regard to my newly "legalized" illegal alien employees, I would consider getting rid of them and replacing them with illegal aliens who haven't been "legalized", and by doing so, save myself a lot of money and paperwork.

[winker]

If you want the un-documented Aliens to leave on their on accord; Starve em out! Identify every American Company that knowinglly hires un-documented Aliens and put them in prison and throw away the key! Soon enough the illegals will follow their noses back to their home of origin or finally resolve to emigrate legally and come out of the shaddows and do things right as we require; otherwise let em starve, if they refuse to abide by our laws. Is your Birthright worth doing this ? It is if you are a real American. America First and forever! Its the JOBS STUPID!

[winker]

If you want the un-documented Aliens to leave on their on accord; Starve em out! Identify every American Company that knowinglly hires un-documented Aliens and put them in prison and throw away the key! Soon enough the illegals will follow their noses back to their home of origin or finally resolve to emigrate legally and come out of the shaddows and do things right as we require; otherwise let em starve, if they refuse to abide by our laws. Is your Birthright worth doing this ? It is if you are a real American. America First and forever! Its the JOBS STUPID!

[ninenot]

Hey Southie--I looked it up special, just for you. Let's start here:

SEC. 501. ACCESS TO CERTAIN BUSINESS RECORDS FOR FOREIGN INTELLIGENCE AND INTERNATIONAL TERRORISM INVESTIGATIONS.
`(a)(1) The Director of the Federal Bureau of Investigation or a designee of the Director (whose rank shall be no lower than Assistant Special Agent in Charge) may make an application for an order requiring the production of any tangible things (including books, records, papers, documents, and other items) for an investigation to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities, provided that such investigation of a United States person is not conducted solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution.

`(2) An investigation conducted under this section shall--

`(A) be conducted under guidelines approved by the Attorney General under Executive Order 12333 (or a successor order); and
`(B) not be conducted of a United States person solely upon the basis of activities protected by the first amendment to the Constitution of the United States.
`(b) Each application under this section--

`(1) shall be made to--
`(A) a judge of the court established by section 103(a); or
`(B) a United States Magistrate Judge under chapter 43 of title 28, United States Code, who is publicly designated by the Chief Justice of the United States to have the power to hear applications and grant orders for the production of tangible things under this section on behalf of a judge of that court; and
`(2) shall specify that the records concerned are sought for an authorized investigation conducted in accordance with subsection (a)(2) to protect against international terrorism or clandestine intelligence activities.
`(c)(1) Upon an application made pursuant to this section, the judge shall enter an ex parte order as requested, or as modified, approving the release of records if the judge finds that the application meets the requirements of this section.

`(2) An order under this subsection shall not disclose that it is issued for purposes of an investigation described in subsection (a).

`(d) No person shall disclose to any other person (other than those persons necessary to produce the tangible things under this section) that the Federal Bureau of Investigation has sought or obtained tangible things under this section.

`(e) A person who, in good faith, produces tangible things under an order pursuant to this section shall not be liable to any other person for such production. Such production shall not be deemed to constitute a waiver of any privilege in any other proceeding or context.


Pay PARTICULAR ATTENTION to 501(c)(1,2, and 3).

This section allows a deputy SAC to request warrant for search of financial transactions, etc., etc., and gags the (financial institution, e.g.) about such requests as well as executed warrants on Suspect A's accounts.

Under THIS Section:

SEC. 213. AUTHORITY FOR DELAYING NOTICE OF THE EXECUTION OF A WARRANT.
Section 3103a of title 18, United States Code, is amended--

(1) by inserting `(a) IN GENERAL- ' before `In addition'; and
(2) by adding at the end the following:
`(b) DELAY- With respect to the issuance of any warrant or court order under this section, or any other rule of law, to search for and seize any property or material that constitutes evidence of a criminal offense in violation of the laws of the United States, any notice required, or that may be required, to be given may be delayed if--

`(1) the court finds reasonable cause to believe that providing immediate notification of the execution of the warrant may have an adverse result (as defined in section 2705);
`(2) the warrant prohibits the seizure of any tangible property, any wire or electronic communication (as defined in section 2510), or, except as expressly provided in chapter 121, any stored wire or electronic information, except where the court finds reasonable necessity for the seizure; and
`(3) the warrant provides for the giving of such notice within a reasonable period of its execution, which period may thereafter be extended by the court for good cause shown.'.
(also known as Sneak and Peek), the Feds are authorized to search property and records WHILE DELAYING NOTIFICATION to the individual whose property is being searched.

At one time, the Fourth Amendment prohibited this.

Further, the FBI has now stretched the meaning of 501 (IIRC) to include such "terrorist" activity as mob money-laundering and tax inquiries.

Hmmmmm.

Frankly, I'm not all that worried about Ashcroft & Co. But I am VERY worried about the HRC Administration , which should take office in 2009.

[FITZ]

After investing 3 years of their lives into Bush's new plan, few illegals will be willing to risk losing it all.

I could possibly see a guest worker program if it's actually proved that we need agricultural workers ---- but those jobs are very seasonal --- for example here where I live there is no farm work because it's winter. I could see busing or flying work crews up for the harvest and then busing or flying them back when harvest is done. That way they keep their family ties and lives in Mexico --- and as long as the families stay there, they continue to be that government's responsibility to educate and provide health care --- otherwise they become ours --- and we can't afford it.

[kuma]

Where is the heavy penalty for not registering and would they actually punish said illegals and businesses that would still hire illegals? I don't think so.