(Smoking) Ban puts bars in the red

The Greeley Tribune (Greeley, Colorado) ^ | 1/12/04 | Phillip Yates

[Great Dane]

#35.... Well, we have had a ban for well over 2 years, the non-smokers still haven't broken the stay-at-home habit.

[kevao]

maybe the habit of NOT going to bars is just too hard to break

For me, it was the other way around.

[Looking for Diogenes]

Those weren't personal attacks - I was commenting on the general tenor of this thread. "Oh, those poor bar owners - they aren't making as much money getting hard working stiffs drunk as they used to." So no, that was not directed at you.

That said - you raise an interesting distiction. I said:
"So it sounds like you believe the government should stay out of all moral or health issues."
To which you replied:
Nice try. I believe that the government's only legitimate function in a free society is to defend the rights of it's citizens.

If the government's only job is to defend the rights of its citizens, when does it get involved in moral or health issues? It sounds like you are confirming what I said. How did I mischaracterize your beliefs?

[Looking for Diogenes]

Well, we have had a ban for well over 2 years, the non-smokers still haven't broken the stay-at-home habit.

I'm missing something here. Are you suggesting that going to bars is a desirable thing?

[TexasCowboy]

"So every time you light up as a Christian, you're tearing apart God's temple,"

Book and verse, please?

No, not 1 Cor. 6: 19-20.
The one about the cigarettes......

[ItsOurTimeNow]

Dining? I thought we were talking about drinking? Bars closing up is the subject here

Little difference to me, since most bars serve food, and most restaurants serve alcohol and/or have bars inside.

The same priciples apply, regardless.

[Gabz]

GASP is dangerous

Yes they are.

I intentionally replied to your statement in the plural because these groups are popping up, seemingly as grassroots efforts, all over the country. They are not. GASP is a hugely funded nationwide effort.

Another one that needs to be watched out for is BREATHE. This is supposedly a group of bar workers supporting smoking bans - it is not. It's a group started by a former stock broker who may currently be living in Arizona but we don't know. After 9/11 he fled fled NYC to reside in France with his partner and their children, but during the build up to the smoking ban in Delaware claimned in a letter to the editor that he was living in Delaware.

Joe Cherner is just one of the many names that should set off alarms to anyone in any place facing supposed grassroots support of smoking bans.

[100%FEDUP]

"They banned smoking in bars.
And pretty soon no more talking and drinking!"
-Eddie Izzard from "Dressed to Kill"

[Gabz]

Habits are hard to break, even the habit of NOT going someplace.

Apparently it is not terribly hard, considering the smokers have largely stopped GOING to bars.

Habits don't change over night, maybe the habit of NOT going to bars is just too hard to break.

See my above statement.

The proponents of the smoking bans were the ones claiming that all the bars and restaurants would be filled with the non-smokers you claim stayed away because of the smoking. They also claimed the smokers would get used to it and come back after a while.

That may be true in southern California or in Florida where the weather is ususally conducive to being outdoors, and in the nice weather in Delaware, New York, and Maine provided the establishment already had outdoor seating. The smokers, who make up the vast majority of the clientele of the bars and taverns are not going to put up with it in inclimate weather.

Nice try.

[Gabz]

They did a great job "talking the talk", but aren't "walking the walk".

You are correct.

What galls me about these antis is that they are trying to blame the smokers with the claim if we were so concerned about the establishment's bottom line we would never have stopped patronizing them - while at the same time not ever patronizing them either.

It's totally a control thing and a backdoor way to prohibition, not only for tobacco, but for alcohol.

Think about it - these smoking bans include EVERY work place, not just bars and restaurants. However it is only establishments that hold liquor licenses that face the possibility of losing their license to do business for violations of the smoking bans. The coffee shop or accountant's office across the street from the bar that violate the ban have no such threat over their heads.

[Great Dane]

I'm missing something here. Are you suggesting that going to bars is a desirable thing?

I don't know..... are you.

We are not just talking bars, and it's not up to me to suggest anything to someone else, I don't remember saying going to bars was desirable or not.

[Gabz]

So it sounds like you believe the government should stay out of all moral or health issues.

Some of the issues the government should be involved in are based upon issues of morals - stealing and murder come to mind very quickly.

Some of the issues the government should be involved in are based upon issues of health - controlling the spread of contagious disease comes quickly to mind.

Banning smoking in private businesses does not fall into either category.

If you dislike smoking or seeing anyone doing so, feel free to patronize those establishments that have chosen to cater to such as yourself. But remember, that these bans remove the right of the owners of the establishments that have chosen to voluntarily go non-smoking and thus cater to you. They created their own niche, and the government has now destroyed it.

[Ditter]

I think having something taken away from you (smoking in bars) that you have always been able to do, is quite a bit different from taking up a new pastime (going to bars) that has never been avaiable to you.

BTW, I have told you that in my opinion, smoking & drinking go together & that bars should be left to the smokers.

[Gabz]

Are you suggesting that going to bars is a desirable thing?

For some people it is and for others it isn't.

Because there are people who think it is a desirable thing, others have gone to the time and expense of opening establishments to cater to them.

Because you don't think it is a desirable thing, are you suggesting there should be none?

[cajun-jack]

I just wonder if this dumbass would be interested in buying a bar??

[Gabz]

I apologize for my comments coming across wrong. I do know your position on smoking in bars and appreciate it.

I was speaking of the personal experiences I've had with the antis that even though they claimed they would try different places have yet to do so - and the smoking ban is over a year old in Delaware. I'm talking about people that always went out to eat and drink before the ban, not those that had reason to not be out because of the smoke.

[Ditter]

Thats OK. How's the house coming along? We had gutter repair here today & some gutter caps installed to keep the leaves out. Its always something!

[Gabz]

I appreciate that - I know you are more on my side than on the side of the control freaks and so some of my remarks were out of line. Not trying to make an excuse, but while responding I was interupted and when I came back to finish I was looking at what I was responding to, not who had made the statements.

I hear you about the gutters. My husband spent 25+ years in construction, primarily in gutters and roofing - yet there are no gutters where they are needed on my house!!!! With how sick we all have been over the past few months - he will be installing gutters on this house very soon. We had a problem with mold because of the unbelievable amount of rain we've had. Other than that - things are coming along well with the house - thanks for asking!!!!!

[swarthyguy]

I think having something taken away from you (smoking in bars) that you have always been able to do,

Does have unexpected benefits re: cash flow, once old or new haunts fall from the itenarary.

Still seems somehow unnatural and surreal - twilight zoneish. Would've made a great episode, but even Serling couldn't visualise this.

And honestly, the vindictive part of me chuckles at the idea of a new temperance movement.

However, If you can tax it, one should be allowed to consume a product.

Banning smoking in bars and nightclubs is just a taliban mindset, not for allah but for health.

[templar]

If business (presumably drinking) has really dropped off that much, it will be interesting to see what happens to things like drunk driving, drunk & disorderly, barroom fights, Friday and Saturday night violence, domestic violence, etc. that is asociated with drinking. Will it make any difference or is bar room drinking unrelated to these things? Are non-smokers more civil and moderate drinkers than smokers? Time should tell.