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The 'Singularity' of the nerds. Fringe group pushes toward superhuman artificial intelligence
San Francisco Chronicle ^ | January 11, 2004 | Danielle Egan

Posted on 01/12/2004 3:01:58 PM PST by John Jorsett

Edited on 04/13/2004 2:45:26 AM PDT by Jim Robinson. [history]

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To: tortoise
I'm not sure why speed (either of CPU or memory) is important for AI. It would be a huge breakthrough to create a machine that is intelligent, but very slow. (Think of the Mailman in Vernor Vinge's True Names.)
41 posted on 01/13/2004 3:46:16 AM PST by Physicist
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To: John Jorsett
David Bowie - Saviour Machine, from the album "The Man Who Sold the World"

President Joe once had a dream
The world held his hand, gave their pledge
So he told them his scheme for a Saviour Machine

They called it the Prayer, its answer was law
Its logic stopped war, gave them food
How they adored till it cried in its boredom

'Please don't believe in me, please disagree with me
Life is too easy, a plague seems quite feasible now
or maybe a war, or I may kill you all

Don't let me stay, don't let me stay
My logic says burn so send me away
Your minds are too green, I despise all I've seen
You can't stake your lives on a Saviour Machine

I need you flying, and I'll show that dying
Is living beyond reason, sacred dimension of time
I perceive every sign, I can steal every mind

Don't let me stay, don't let me stay
My logic says burn so send me away
Your minds are too green, I despise all I've seen
You can't stake your lives on a Saviour Machine
42 posted on 01/13/2004 3:55:56 AM PST by machman
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To: John Jorsett
I feel the same way about these "Singularitarians" as I do about the "Extropians". They're right...but what's the point?

Suppose that in the mid 1700s there was a group of blacksmiths and canal engineers who preached the gospel of the coming "Industrial Revolution". They would call themselves "Industrians", and spend their time promoting the idea to the masses, preparing themselves for the coming era of prosperity, and generally living an "industrial lifestyle". Would that have moved the industrial revolution forward in the slightest? Would that have had anything to do with anything? Not a chance.

I say the Singularity really is coming, and I welcome it. The best humanity can do is to rush headlong into it, and the best I can do is to push that along as far as possible, as fast as possible. And how do I do that? Oh, by doing my work and living my life.

And that includes eating Pringles and watching football. GO EAGLES!!

43 posted on 01/13/2004 3:57:02 AM PST by Physicist
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To: LPM1888
You think humans can become God. OK?
44 posted on 01/13/2004 6:30:33 AM PST by plain talk
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To: gcruse
No problem with medicine. These kooks are talking about far more radical stuff. "He plans to be alive after the last star in the Milky Way is dead."

As far as the "deficiencies" you mentioned, God has provided loads of Vitamin C for you in the foods you eat. He's also allowed man to develop Vitamin C pills for supplements. Dogs can't do that and, as you say, God takes care of dogs. Apparently God likes us to use our minds and overcome challenges. When I get to heaven maybe I'll bring that up as an issue for Christ to consider. :-)

Back problems? I have a friend who suffers quite a bit from that. I have neck problems from time to time. Apparently God allows imperfections in the design and subsequent discomfort to occur. C. S. Lewis has a book devoted to the topic of God and pain.
45 posted on 01/13/2004 7:02:14 AM PST by plain talk
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To: John Jorsett

46 posted on 01/13/2004 9:47:13 AM PST by RightWingAtheist
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To: John Jorsett
At age 200, he says, he'll add on new capacity to avoid becoming bored or suffering a serious cognitive malfunction. At age 2,000, he would "probably need serious architectural changes to the mind." He plans to be alive after the last star in the Milky Way is dead.

This is the kind of dork who'll trip over his own shoelaces and crack his head open on the radiator, to be found by the super 3 months later after the neighbors complain about the smell.

47 posted on 01/13/2004 9:54:19 AM PST by Hank Rearden (Dick Gephardt. Before he dicks you.)
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To: Physicist
I'm not sure why speed (either of CPU or memory) is important for AI. It would be a huge breakthrough to create a machine that is intelligent, but very slow.

It is not strictly necessary, but I don't think most people realize how pathologically slow memory access actually is. For example, if we were to fully trace a 1/10 of a second worth of network activation in the human brain (not that this has any relevance to AI, but to give an idea of the scope of the problem), while a modern CPU like an Opteron is easily within an order of magnitude of "real-time" for the computational requirements in the abstract, the best off-the-shelf memory subsystem available now would take upwards of the better part of a day to access the required memory on a data structure that large. This is a serious problem.

Add to the problem that effective intelligence is a roughly a function of structure size (i.e. "memory"), and you have a severe scaling issue. At some point, an intelligence becomes sufficiently slow that most responses will be irrelevant by the time they are returned due to extremely high latency. Latency in many different aspects is the basic pragmatic limit to intelligence. From a theoretical standpoint, latency limits the effective Kolmogorov complexity of any time-bounded process and therefore the amount of intelligence it can express or bring to bear.

So in theory you are correct, speed has no relation to intelligence. As a pragmatic issue, intelligence isn't much good if it isn't timely.

48 posted on 01/13/2004 10:52:55 AM PST by tortoise (All these moments lost in time, like tears in the rain.)
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To: tortoise
I see. Thanks for clearing that one up for me.

Once again, IMHO the first "sentient" machine will be one that asks questions of its own volition, without being programmed to ask questions. That will be a good proof of "sentience", again, IMHO.
49 posted on 01/13/2004 12:12:36 PM PST by Elliott Jackalope (We send our kids to Iraq to fight for them, and they send our jobs to India. Now THAT'S gratitude!)
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To: RadioAstronomer
AI might happen, but the question is would we recognize it if it did. In other words could we create an AI without even realizing it?

I agree with a recent definition of AI, which is the point at which any given problem can be solved better by computers than by humans. Implying that the computer would not require specialized programing and would search out the necessary information without human guidance.

This definition bypasses the need to discuss whether the machine is conscious or whether it could "pass" for human. I suspect this level of AI will be achieved long before we start seriously considering artifical consciousness.

I fully expect to live to see medical diagnosis and legal advice computerized. These would merely be extensions of currently available expert systems.

Programming itself will probably be automated in the next 20 years, with genetic algorithms and their successors creating the best code for any given application.

50 posted on 01/13/2004 12:27:21 PM PST by js1138
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To: RadioAstronomer
AI might happen, but the question is would we recognize it if it did. In other words could we create an AI without even realizing it?

I agree with a recent definition of AI, which is the point at which any given problem can be solved better by computers than by humans. Implying that the computer would not require specialized programing and would search out the necessary information without human guidance.

This definition bypasses the need to discuss whether the machine is conscious or whether it could "pass" for human. I suspect this level of AI will be achieved long before we start seriously considering artifical consciousness.

I fully expect to live to see medical diagnosis and legal advice computerized. These would merely be extensions of currently available expert systems.

Programming itself will probably be automated in the next 20 years, with genetic algorithms and their successors creating the best code for any given application.

51 posted on 01/13/2004 12:27:42 PM PST by js1138
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To: plain talk
You think humans can become God. OK?

Primitive humans when confronted with humans with more advanced technology always perceive the advanced humans as gods.

Humans who evolve into and become augmented as part of the "Singularity" will certainly become gods from our current point of view because we have no understanding of their future capabilities and thought processes. As the "Singularity Humans" continue to evolve at an ever quickening rate they will become a lifeform as foreign to our comprehension as a we are to an ant.

Will they ever become "God"? Only time will tell, but eventually there won't be anyplace else for them to evolve to.

52 posted on 01/13/2004 10:29:20 PM PST by LPM1888 (What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? - Lazarus Long)
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To: tortoise
That boils down to the question of what is AI precisely?

Thanks for the info on latency. I had no idea. As far as what AI will really be? I am in the dark on this one.

53 posted on 01/14/2004 12:25:26 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: js1138; tortoise; Physicist; All
Thanks for the posts. I learn so much from you guys. :-)
54 posted on 01/14/2004 12:26:40 PM PST by RadioAstronomer
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To: hoagy62
"Colossus:The Forbin Project" is one of my all-time fave movies. An undiscovered classic...
55 posted on 01/14/2004 12:31:01 PM PST by GodBlessRonaldReagan (where is Count Petofi when we need him most?)
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To: hoagy62; GodBlessRonaldReagan
I love it too. Here's a review I wrote:

http://www.scifilm.org/reviews/colossus.html
56 posted on 01/14/2004 4:06:25 PM PST by RightWingAtheist
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To: LPM1888
Spoken like a true aetheist. Thanks for the enlightenmeant.
57 posted on 01/14/2004 4:53:01 PM PST by plain talk
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To: plain talk
You're quite welcome!
58 posted on 01/14/2004 5:52:24 PM PST by LPM1888 (What are the facts? Again and again and again -- what are the facts? - Lazarus Long)
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To: RightWingAtheist
Cool review!
59 posted on 01/15/2004 4:52:17 AM PST by GodBlessRonaldReagan (where is Count Petofi when we need him most?)
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To: GodBlessRonaldReagan
Thanks!
60 posted on 01/15/2004 9:22:18 AM PST by RightWingAtheist
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