Bricks With Molded Designs Unearthed In Chongqing (Caucasians in Ancient China)

Xinhuanet.com/China View ^ | 1-12-2004

[CDHart]

LOL! There's both Scottish and Irish in my background, and supposedly they like nothing better than a good fight!

Carolyn

[Mackey]

My ex-wife (1987), who was a red-head, was quick-tempered and stubborn as hell. Must have gotten that from her Viking ancestors.

[LN2Campy]

stories like this one and the "blondes of Nuristan" seem to indicate that fair caucasians were once much more widespread across Asia. Now it looks like they won't even hang on to their narrow fringe of western europe...

[Lion in Winter]

George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Franklin, General Daniel Morgan, Patrick Henry, Alexander Hamilton, General Anthony Wayne and many others associated with the American Revolution had red hair....including several of my ancestors.

[blam]

"I particularly liked the article about the fierce fighting, red headed Scotmen, because my father's Irish (protestant) surname mean fierce fighter or warrior."

The fiercest warriors of them all were the Xiongnu who were closely related to the Scythians...some have tried to link them to the Picts which, would seem to fit as far as size, (small),complexion, (dark) and disposition, (war like). They all had a reputation for body painting and tattos.

[blam]

"stories like this one and the "blondes of Nuristan" seem to indicate that fair caucasians were once much more widespread across Asia. Now it looks like they won't even hang on to their narrow fringe of western europe..."

It does seem that way...including Northern Africa. On the other hand, I do believe the small dark Negritos were everywhere (...and still are in isolated areas) in the world at one time.

Maybe even the Leprechauns of Irish legend?

[blam]

"stories like this one and the "blondes of Nuristan"

You mean these? (see the pictures at the end of the page)

[HenryLeeII]

Aha! Thank you. Anthropology is not my strong suit, so I appreciate the info...

[Professional Engineer]

ping

[LN2Campy]

das stimmt, mein herr! sehr hubsch!

[JimSEA]

I would think that with a date of 25 AD, it would be most likely. I don't remember the dates exactly, but Roman coins have been found in the Kanchanburi area (Dvaravati / early Khmer). The historical linkage between Yunnan, Sichuan, Nan Chao Thai and the Lanna Thai is well established for the later period (800 - 1300 AD). Now some linguists believe the Thai are indigenous to the North and Northeast of current Thailand. If true, the link would considerably pre-date the Han.

[blam]

(a discussion between some Chinese folks)

SUBJECT:
Hakka, Tang ren
COMMENT:
Dear Stephen,

If you look at the Tang terra cotta figurines (Tang San Cai ­ð¤T±m ), many of the horse riding soldiers show mostly Caucasian features. Li Bai was born in °Æ¸­ outside of the current Chinese territory. The pictures of Tang emperors are not necessarily in true reemblance with the person. The Li(Lee) clan of Tang began in Longxi, Gansu which is very close to Guanwai Ãö¥~. Tang's territory covered much further than the current western limit. There should have been a lot of intermarriages between Han and Xiongnu, Turks, Xianbei, etc. Xianbei was totally Hanized. (I don't like the word sincized as sino is already mixed).

The ratio of Han population is far overwhelming, so the mix-blood is more like the Mongolian trait after generations. Since the migrations occurred in different stages, Hakkas migrating south from different regions also have different characteristics. There is no simple way to define Hakka, just as there is no simple way to define Chinese. I think Xiongnu is still Mongolian trait. But Turks are definitely Caucasian. You must have seen the mummy female warrior and others excavated in Xinjiang(Takla Makan desert). She was a Caucasian dated in probably up to 4000 years ago. (http://www.discovery.com/stories/history/desertmummies/desertmummies.html) The interaction of Han with non-Han in China must have been happening all the time since 4000 years ago.

Siu-Leung Lee
FROM:asiawind.com
- Saturday, October 30, 1999 at 23:44:38 (PD

[blam]

I detected there was an essay concerning the ethnic consist of "Wu Hu" which invaded China during the Jin Dynasty. The author's view was that the Turk which raided China later was a Caucasian tribe (there Khan described as with grenn eyes and red cheek, more evidance available) , "Wu Hu" (Xiongnu, Jie, Qiang, Di, Xianbei) were not.

But according to the Chinese ancient historical annual, the Xiongnu are such Nordic tribe with red hair and blue eyes like "Wushun". And, Jie, which was a branch of Xiongnu, also described as with high Nose Bridge, and "deep" eyes. After the collapse of their ruling to Han, the Jie people was distinguished easily because of their Caucasian feature and slaughtered (more than 200,000 victims). The historical work of the later dynasties also described the remained Xiongnu people as "Long nose" and "yellow hair". Until Tang dynasty, the "Qi Hu" which is the offspring of the royal Xiongnu people, still called "Hu tou Han se" which mean's they adopt the Chinese tongue, but still "foreign" feature.

Much other evidence can support the standpoint that Xiongnu are Caucasion,I don't want to illustrate any more. Some people believe the Xiongnu are Mongolian race, because the Roman historian said the Hun people who invaded were"brown skin, stocky body, slanting eyes" which are typical Mongolian trait. But, actually, the Hun who invaded Europe 5th century was not the descendant of Xiongnu. The contemporary scholars affirm they are the identical tribe just because the pronunciation of "Hun" and "Xiongnu" are approximately the same. And there is some relationship between their languege. I also want to point out that around the 5th and 6th century, there's another branch of "Hun" ruined the Persia and Northwest India, that Branch was called "White Hun" The Persian historian said that thier feature were different from "Hun", with white body. Hence, it seemed that, they were also Caucasian.

Now, let's come to Xianbei, many people noticed that, in the historical book, the Xianbei people were called "Bai Lu" means white invader (thief). And in the Great Work <>, I found the following story--The Emperor Of Eastern Jin, Jin Ming Di (Shima Shao), was with yellow beard and hair, because his mother was a Xianbei female. Once he went to inspect his troop without notice, And the warriors all considered him as Xianbei people, then chased him as enemy. The folk songs at that time said, "Huang tou Xianbei jin Luoyang"--Xianbei is with "yellow head", it is quite possible that "yellow head" referred to their yellow hair and beard. Xianbei is an alliance of tribes; there might also be some Mongolian tribes in it, but the Caucasian consist was more obvious, which all Hans paid attention to it.

I'm inclined to be in approval of what Mr. Peng elaborated yesterday. The contemporary Chinese people don't dwell on the ethnic origin of the nation, most of them believe they are simply Mongolian race. That's not a correct concept. The racial intermix in china began before any dynasty, but the Neolithic time. The skulls unearthed in the relics of Banpo Xi'an reveal the trait of Caucasian, exactly, the Nordish Caucasian. The Banpo civilian used to be the hybrid of Nordish and Mongolian (like the Finn today). We all know, the Banpo is the representative civilization of the Northern China Neolithic civilizations, we can infer, many other Chinese civilizations in that time were created by Caucasian or mingled people.

The Hemudu in Zhejiang is the representative Neolithic civilization in Southern China. But after measuring the skulls detected there, it was extremely amazed that, they're of Negro characteristics!

One renowned Chinese anthropologist stated in his work that "According to the numerous skeletons of Indo-Europe people unearthed in China and the feature of the Southern Chinese people today, the Chinese nation can't be classified into the Mongolian race simply. At an earlier time, many Chinese anthropologists also clarify that it's completely wrong to say the ancient skeletons discovered in China belong to the same race. The Mongolian couldn't be regarded as the only "Local Chinese". The Caucasian also had been inhabited in Eastern Asia since very early time. In Japan, the aboriginal Ainu people was finally confessed as the ancestor of current Japanese nation. The Ainu was the Caucasian tribe moved to the Japanese islands more than 20,000 years ago, while the Mongolian just reached Japan around 10,000 years ago. They intermixed and yielded the Japanese people now. The same procedure of intermixing also took place in Korea.

Another famous event happened last year also support the idea--some researchers of biochemistry analyzed the DNA refined from the mummies in some ancient tombs in Shangdong province, and made a conclusion that these DNA correspond that of the European people. Another research discovered that the gene of Northern Chinese is more close to the Caucasian, rather than the Southern Chinese.

The origin of Zhou, The third Dynasty of ancient China, is also doubtful. The time of the establishment of that dynasty is not far from the time of Aryan Expansion. The chariot used by the soldiers of Zhou just resembles the chariot used by Aryan invaders to India! More critical, the ancient Chinese work written by Mengzi said that, Zhou Wen Wang (the emperor of Zhou) is the people of "western barbarians" It's quite possible that a branch of Aryan intruded china at the moving of Aryan.

Someone even suspect the origin of the Qin Dynasty, which was the subsequent dynasty of Zhou. At least, there was some independent Aryan tribes which didn't integrated with local Chinese or absorbed by local Chinese still existed in Western and central China at the time of late Zhou dynasty. It was recorded that the king of Qin attack the ruler of Zhou with some barbarous tribes but failed. That event happened a few hundred years BC, at that very time, the Bactoria in Central Asia was conquered by 4 Nomadic Aryan tribes, the origins of 3 of these tribes were definite. Now, some historians reckon the 4th tribe might be the failed Aryan tribe that moved back to Central Asia. Until Han dynasty, the "Yue zhi" (pronounced as 'rou zhi, an Aryan Tribe) still live in Ganshu province, and sometimes also find the track of their activity in Northern China. And the region east to Tianshan Mountain (in the center of Eastern Turkeystan) was distributed by Saka (A branch of Aryan, whose language belongs to the Iranian Group, known as Scythian by Westerners and 'Sai Zhong' by Chinese).

Now, many scholars believe that many "Yi" and "Di" (the diverse barbarian tribes) recorded in early Chinese dynasties are Caucasian.

I'm afraid the origin Xiongnu can be traced back to Scythian. Because the record revealed that their custom were exactly the same.

Thus, the Chinese people nowadays contain abundant of Caucasian blood. But currently, they all belong to the same nation, that's because the ancient Chinese culture was so great that it could absorb any other races, it was a furnace to integrate all races. And the Caucasian, Mongolian created the grand Chinese civilization together.

[Nine09]

Caucasians In Southwest China province of Sichuan?

In the southwest of China lives an ethnic group called the Yi. They inhabit the Sichuan Mountains.

Heres a little info on them:


"In the southwest corner of the Middle Kingdom (China) lies the dragon-shaped province of Yunnan. The variety, color, and isolation of the peoples of this province are unlike any other. Of the fifty-six nationally recognized minorities in China, twenty-six of them reside in Yunnan. One of these is the Yi minority. These peoples all live far from the modern world, where natural language and ethnic barriers fall along river valleys and mountain ranges. To reach them, one must travel dirt roads crossing mountain streams, and paths going straight up to nowhere."

"The origins of the Yi people have baffled scholars for centuries. When early travelers ventured through the Da Liang Shan (Big Cold Mountains) in Sichuan Province in the late 1800s, they were surprised to find Yi men standing 6 ft 1 or 6 ft 2 inches tall, and women and children with large noses and flat foreheads. One writer even called the Yi "a black branch of the Caucasian race." Others guessed they must have originated in Central Asia, as their features and language had no resemblance to Chinese or Mongoloid races."

Weird....

[ahxiang]

There is no trace of 'White men' whatsoever in ancient China. Any sculpture showing some features of different people could only be exceptions. Do note that Indian buddhists, who possesseed high nose bridge, had come to China continuously throughout 2300 years.

The territory of Xinjiang, i.e., New Dominion Province, is a disputable area. Sima Qian could be wrong in assuming that Yuezhi people had lived around Dunhuang-Qilian. The mummies were found near Turpan or Urumqi.

In history, true, Ran Min had killed 200,000 Jiehu for their high nose bridge in 3-4th century time frame. Jiehu was merely one branch of the Huns, but the rest of Huns were just like us Chinese. That's why history said Jiehu was sorted out by high nose bridge. High nose bridge was not equal to White men. You had seen Indians, Pakistani, and Afghanistani. They all have high nose bridge, but they are not White men. People in Xinjiang, Afghanistan and Pakistan have relatively darker skin, the same way as Tibetans: Because they live on higher grounds, and because they live next to the desert. Similarly, hairy skin was not equal to White men. I had pasted a picture of the Ainu on my website at http://www.uglychinese.org/japanese.htm Once you see who the Ainu are, you understand what I mean.

I had a discourse on Tanguts, Qiangs [Tibetans], and today's Yi-zu minority. There were extrapolations about them. Epics claimed they pasted red color onto dark face. Should they have high nose bridge, that's because they, either relatives or ancestors of Tibetans, had historically lived in between Chinese and Xinjiang [New Dominion Province].

In the following, I will paste some of my studies

Rong's Possible Link To Qiangic People

Shallow-minded and opportunist Chinese, who never hesitated to be a traitor since the Opium War of 1839-42, had speculated a purported link to non-Mongoloid on basis of incomplete analysis of Linzi DNA on the tomb remains of people living in Shandong Peninsula 2500-3000 years ago. Such racial demeaning approach led to claims that ancient Rong-di people were non-Mongoloid or that ancient Chang-di barbarian & Zhongshan-guo people were non-Mongoloid. A thorough perusal of ancient history only leads to one conclusion, i.e., ancient Rong-di people and their offsprings were ancestors of today's Tibetans. http://mbe.oupjournals.org/cgi/cont...stract/20/2/214 carried an article about the new research paper by Society for Molecular Biology and Evolution, claiming that "The reanalysis of two previously published ancient mtDNA population data sets from Linzi (same province) then indicates that the ancient populations had features in common with the modern populations from south China rather than any specific affinity to the European mtDNA pool". (Prof Wei Chu-Hsien, in China & America, had research into 'bat cave' drawings on Taiwan Island and concluded that ancient Taiwan aboriginals had migrated there from coastal China.)

http://www.uglychinese.org/hun.htm#White-yi

Emperor Fu Jian of Anterior Qin Dynasty (AD 351-394) called the Xianbei rebels 'Bai Lu', namely, "light"-skinned enemies [as commonly perceived]. Historians, including Cai Dongfan, speculated that Xianbei, whose ancestors fled to Manchuria under the Hunnic attack, MIGHT have possessed lighter skin; and a Japanese historian, who compiled China's 25 chronicles into commonly-readable series, had also pointed out that Jinn Dynasty wealthy in northern China liked to buy Xianbei women as concubines for the height. Having interpreted "Huangxu-nu of Xianbei" as "yellow-haired slave of the Xianbei nomads", I would conclude that Xianbei 'Bai Lu' could merely mean white-colored clothing people by adopting Scholar Wang Zhonghan's linkage of ancient Bai-yi [White Yi] subgroup of Dong-yi [Eastern Yi] barbarians to the tribal custom of wearing white-colored clothes. In deed, today's Koreans, i.e., kinsmen of the Tungunzic Dong Hu, still had a tradition of wearing white robe.

[ahxiang]

From: Bobo Huang Date: Wed, 22 Dec 2004 02:19:50 -0600 To:

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I think all these arguments on (Han) Chinese origin are avoidable. Historical records, including ethnic demographic history, are likely to be some times imprecise and inconclusive. This leads to much controversy and speculations. Paleoanthropology offers some insight and genealogy can contribute. But, as genetics and paleo-genetics can provide more accurate answers, these should be the main focus. This is not to negate others as mentioned. They are still relevant to compliment the genetic analysis. For example, in appearance or morphologically, most of the Brazillians don’t look like the Native American (Indian). Genetic analysis reveals something quite different. The indigenous mitrochrondial DNA (female lineage) contribution to the Brazillian population varies from 11% to 59%. Even in some of the upper echelon of the supposedly more homogenous Whites, it reaches as high as 33%. (Ref.1). A corollary study with DNA from the Y chromosome (male lineage) of Columbian Mestizos pointed to a figure of about 2 %.(Ref 2) This means historically it was mainly the European and to a much smaller extent African males who mated with the indigenous women to produce the current Brazillian population. It strongly indicated that, in consistent with history, large numbers of the indigenous males were enslaved and worked to death/killed. And the excess native women were taken advantage by the predominantly male European immigrants/invaders. It was also possible that the native women preferred male European for survival reasons. This contradicts the current academic apology that depopulation of the natives was the result of diseases or lack of immunity to introduced diseases. Diseases do not discriminate (whether you are male or female).

This aside, there are now enough genetic studies to answer this question about (Han) Chinese origin. Perhaps, if all the Chinese ethnic groups are to be considered, more comprehensive and representative data are needed. However, over the past few years, the Chinese genome project set up by Stanford University and several Chinese Universities (Fudan University, etc.) has done enough research to yield some results. (Ref 3) Basically, genetic studies on Chinese, inclusive of many main ethnic groups, conclude that there are no European/Caucasoid genes in the Han Chinese. It is easier and more definite to disprove substantial Caucasoid genetic component in all Han Chinese. Also if there is any truth that there is Caucasoid origin to Chinese, then significant amount of Caucasoid mitochrondia DNA (female line) and Y chromosomal DNA (male line) has to be present in all the Han Chinese. Even in the Uyghurs, the population only possesses about 25 % identifiable Central Asian (more Turkish, not exactly European) genetic markers.( Ref 3). The rest of their genetic markers are more related to Northern Chinese/East Asian. This demonstrates that it is more plausible to make a case that there were migrations outward from central/north China rather than Central Asian infusion.(Ref 4,5)

In reality, the analysis of the genetic component of the Han and its mainly Asian minorities is more complex. This is because genetically, the Asian minorities (eg Tibetan) are more related to the Han than the Caucasian or other minorities (eg.Kazaks) that have significant amount of Central Asian genes. To track down the more closely related ethnic groups, more samples (larger number of people from each group) and genetic markers have to be analysed to reveal the minor differences. This is simply because it is harder to differentiate individuals who are more alike genetically. Besides, interbreeding over the years further compromised the differences and so complicated the picture. (Ref 4,5)

The following references used for this posting are available from website like www.genetics.org Reasonable knowledge in genetics is required to read and understand them.

Ref 1. Am. J. Hum. Genet., 67:444-461, 2000 The Ancestry of Brazilian mtDNA Lineages Juliana Alves-Silva,1 Magda da Silva Santos,1 Pedro E. M. Guimarães,1 Alessandro C. S. Ferreira,1 Hans-Jürgen Bandelt,2 Sérgio D. J. Pena,1 and Vania Ferreira Prado1 1Departamento de Bioquímica e Imunologia, Universidade Federal de Minas Gerais, Belo Horizonte-MG, Brazil; and 2 Fachbereich Mathematik, Universität Hamburg, Hamburg

Ref 2. Strong Amerind/white sex bias and a possible Sephardic contribution among the founders of a population in northwest Colombia. Carvajal-Carmona LG, Soto ID, Pineda N, Ortiz-Barrientos D, Duque C, Ospina-Duque J, McCarthy M, Montoya P, Alvarez VM, Bedoya G, Ruiz-Linares A. Laboratorio de Genetica Molecular, Universidad de Antioquia, Medellin, Colombia.

Ref 3. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol. 95, pp. 11501–11503, September 1998 Commentary The Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project L. Luca Cavalli-Sforza Department of Genetics, Stanford University School of Medicine, Stanford, CA 94305

Ref 4. Y-Chromosome Evidence for a Northward Migration of Modern Humans into Eastern Asia during the Last Ice Age Bing Su,1 Junhua Xiao,2 Peter Underhill,5 Ranjan Deka,7 Weiling Zhang,2 Joshua Akey,1 Wei Huang,3,4 Di Shen,1 Daru Lu,2 Jingchun Luo,2 Jiayou Chu,8 Jiazhen Tan,2 Peidong Shen,5 Ron Davis,5,6 Luca Cavalli-Sforza,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,1 Momiao Xiong,1 Ruofu Du,9 Peter Oefner,5,6 Zhu Chen,3,4 and Li Jin1,2,3 1Human Genetics Center, University of Texas-Houston, Houston; 2Morgan-Tan International Center for Life Sciences and Institute of Genetics, Fudan University, 3National Human Genome Center at Shanghai, and 4Rui-Jin Hospital, Shanghai Second Medical University, Shanghai; 5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, and 6Stanford DNA Sequencing and Technology Center, Palo Alto; 7Department of Environmental Health, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati; 8Institute of Medical Biology, The Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences, Kunming, Yunnan, China; and 9Institute of Genetics, The Chinese Academy of Sciences, Beijing

Ref 5. Genetic Structure of the Chinese Populations 1,2Lin He, 1,2YongYong Shi, 1,2XinZhi Zhao, 1,2Lan Yu, 1,2Ran Tao, 1,2JunXia Tang, 1,2Changshun Zhang, 1,2Bo Gao, 1,2Gang Chen, 1,2GuoYin Feng, 1,2YuJuan La 1Bio-X Life Science Research Center, Shanghai Jiao Tong University, 1954 Hua Shan Road, Shanghai 200030, China, 2Shanghai Research Center of Life Sciences, 320 Yue Yang Road, Chinese Academy of Sciences, Shanghai 200031, China

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