[carlo3b]

 
"In the spider-web of facts, many a truth is strangled." 
                     -Paul Eldridge

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[carlo3b]

 
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[highlander_UW]

Last I saw, the Statue of Liberty was being refurbished...apparently along with the sentiments.

[hosepipe]

[ Bet the farm, or the futon, that the screams are always louder during an election year, and the spin is more spit than polish. Just like the generations that preceded us the Italians, Irish, Germans, Haitians and Vietnamese, these folks will continue to be a blessing to our country. Take a deep breath and think about it without the shrill voices whispering apocalyptic threats. ]

The persons of whom you speak were required to learn some things about the constitution and some basic civics... no so anymore... immigrants now come here with no such requirements... the only things they learn is who is "party" willing to GIVE ME SOMETHING... also they had to be healthy... I've thought about it and Yup.... apocalyps is still looming...

[rmh47]

"Give us your poor, your tired, your huddled masses longing to be free..."

I believe the quote, from Emma Lazarus' poem, "The New Colossus," is:

Give me your tired, your poor,
Your huddled masses yearning to breathe free.

[lmr]

With all do respect, There is no Statue of Liberty in Texas, Arizona or California... The huddled masses did not cross the Atlantic, they merely crossed the Rio Grande. They don't see 'Liberty' when they arrive, they see entitlement.

[MissouriForBush]

Ah, Carlo. If only your lofty prose were all that simple.

But it isn't.

[stopem]

When are they going to get it?
IMMIGRATION and ILLEGAL aliens are TWO seperate entities.
Frankly sick of it all and all politicians!

[independentmind]

Excellent article, carlo3b.

[Young Rhino]

I have no problem with a legal guest worker program provided (a) they are not entitled to welfare and other government handouts, (b) they cannot bring kids with them to burden the public school system, (c) they cannot marry a U.S. citizen without a rigorous background check (at their expense) to ensure that the marriage is not a fraud, (d) any children born in the U.S. are not entitled to automatic U.S. citizenship, (e) a guest worker cannot bring either friends or family to the U.S., (f) there is a 25-year moratorium on non-English speaking immigrants while assimilation occurs, (g) there is an effective deportation system in place, and (h) immigration is based solely on what the immigrant can bring to the U.S. in terms of education, skills, and assets. As for the guest worker program, I'd require Mexico to abandon Spanish as its official language and make English a mandatory second language in its school system. I'd also require Mexico to abandon its no-extradition policy that it uses with glee to harbor fugitives from U.S. justice.

[Jimmy Valentine's brother]

Your posit is wrong. The Mexican illegals don't yearn to be free. They aren't interested in becoming American citizens. They aren't interested in learning the English language. They are not coming from an oppressed land ruled by unelected despots. They like Cortez have come for the gold. They want become "rich" and return to Mexico.

[saveliberty]

Your assumptions are flawed.

An American who steals someone's identity goes to jail. An illegal alien who steals someone's identity and messes up their contributions/retirement plans/credit rating will now be okay?

Employers are not allowed to question the paperwork, but they are charged a fine if there is a Taxpayer ID mismatch. Real life examples - worker produces ID and Social Security number of one person, gets job, works for a year and then says that no, this is his real information and produces new name and Soc Sec number (each of which is totally different), next year does the same thing.

Employer knows, pays fine and is legally barred from questioning.

IRS knows, gets money and is legally barred from providing the information to INS.

Illegal immigrant gets the benefit of selective compliance of the law.

I read a number of articles about the new legislation being proposed and the common theme was that illegals who'd been here a long time were perplexed that they had "invested" 20 or so years and why should they give this up?

Freedom is not an entitlement to benefits or a permission to be above the law.

Why stop at identity theft? If someone is justified in his mind to break laws, why not break more? And in fact, the criminal record of illegal aliens is vastly higher than that of legal immigrants and US citizens. The welfare rolls are vastly higher for illegals and legals.

Here's the last thought: how is it that these abuses of the current system and proposals to create a guest worker program are not abusive to illegals by creating permanent underclasses in both the US and Mexico (and other countries that want their tired and poor out of their own countries)? We don't need to have to think of a job as unchanging. If employers could not hire illegals, then they would either a) sponsor legals or b) find some better means of automating some jobs.

This is another policy that sounds humane but is determined to nail all immigrants to the lowest possible income level.

Helping isn't enabling.

[sauropod]

Carlo. It is not like it used to be. Nowadays, immigrants do not care to assimilate into the "American" culture. And the State accomodates them (multilingual education, voter's ballots, etc.).

[ODDITHER]

Until now, I have avoided replying to most immigration posts because most of the posters are so passionate about this issue that I am sure nothing I said would change their mind. As to the proposal the President Bush has proposed, I have not made up my mind. I do have some questions that I would like answered.


First of all, I would like to preface my remarks and questions on the fact that I refuse to call them undocumented workers. Most illegal immigrants have more documents than any citizen. They are either forged, or stolen. Very few have no documents. Changing their name does nothing to change their status.. Illegal immigrant is a humane name. They could be called, wanted criminals.

Dederal state and local officials know that revenues collected via emplooyment taxes for Illegal Immigrants (II's) is gravy, they do not file for refunds or try to collect social security. Because of this, they have turned a blind eye for the last 20+ years.

Estimates are that there are 10 million illegal workers in the US.
How many immigration officers would it take to round them up and export them?

How much would the taxpayers pay to hunt down,go through the court sytem and send them back over the border?

Will this plan be enforcable and will this plan reduce the number of illegal immigrants in the future?

Will there be enough teeth in the law to ensure that emplyers will be held accountable if they hire II's?

Will it stop future illegal immigration?

Will it put undo hardship on businesses or impact the economy?
Will it require state and local governments to enforce the law?

In closing, most of the posters that are passionate about this subject, also hate NAFTA and are against the corps that have moved their companies to other countries. I believe that these subjects are not mutually exclusive.

I thank the lord that we live in a country so free and successful that people risk their lives to get get into our great nation, rather than risking their lives to get out.

[NittanyLion]

A wonderfully-written essay. Unfortunately, the fact of the matter is that these immigrants will become an immediate drain on our entitlement programs. Two and three generations ago, your ancestors and mine produced value for the US, and took none. Until entitlement programs are no longer US policy, an open borders policy will be inappropriate.

[ovrtaxt]

Yes, my family crossed a border from Canada into the United States in the dead of night in hopes of securing a better life for their children.

My family applied legally, left Spain and entered through Ellis Island. Am I more of a legitimate American than you? Yes, I have the record of law to validate it. You have the record of a criminal act.

Sorry if the truth hurts.

[dennisw]

Your view of illegal immigration is highly colored by you working with them. I have read Anthony Bourdain's  "Kitchen Confidential" ,who worked with so many Hispanics in NYC restaurants. I am familiar with the food industry. I know there are tons of illegals working in the restaurant business. Many of them fine people but illegal as heck, as illegal as me stabbing someone with a knife or drunk driving. There wouldn't be so many restaurants if it were not for illegal aliens. So what? If the iron and steel industry had been allowed to hire illegal aliens we would have a lot more American steel companies alive today. 

Legal legal legal legal legal legal. 
We cannot have illegal aliens flooding our sovereign nation. Make this current crop of 12 million legal and you will provide a huge incentive for more illegal immigration, Same as happened from Ronald Reagan's' amnesty. This is not Mexico, this is the sovereign nation of the United States of America. GWBush plan dilutes my precious American citizenship. GWBush mocks it! I have no sympathy for this tide of illegal Mexicans/Central Americans flooding my country. They are greedy pigs butting into the line of orderly immigration 

How would you feel if you tried for years to bring a relative here from Italy? Someone who dearly wants to live here and contribute on a high level? He is university educated. Then Karl Rove/GWBush come along and says "Screw you Carlo! Mexicans and  Central American law breakers go to the head of the line. Screw your Italian biologist cousin!"

[dennisw]

Legalize illegal immigration and you will get a lot more of it. 

Reward illegal immigration with "temporary guest worker programs" and you will get a lot more of it. 

Legalize 12 million illegal aliens and you will encourage those who wish to come here legally, to try their luck coming here illegally.

Legalize those who play games with visas and you will get a lot more of it. Are you aware of how many Latinos (Colombia, Ecuador and Argentina especially) come here on tourist visas and stay illegally? Hire immigration lawyers to tie up the courts and get them green cards.

[ClintonBeGone]

Good for you Carlo, you're right on with this statement.

[OESY]

Good post, Carlo, nicely sprinkled with memorable quotations.

It's either the Bush Plan, or Do Nothing. As we begin to build a front-end database of arriving visitors, we have to clean up the back end -- the 8-10 million already here, who made it in -- the vast majority of whom are good contributing people.

A program should not condone or encourage illegal entry, but no one will pay for the billions it would take to enforce a non-voluntary plan. So you need a program of incentives, and the best incentive is to legitimatize their existence because we aren't going to deport them.

Pardon my mixed metaphor, but where the rest of the world has a brain drain, we are the magnet that attracts them. The benefits are ours. We depend on their labor, their ambition to make it, their contribution to the economy and, yes, their taxes to fund our the government, including our fight against terror, social security and the rest. Beyond that, we depend on them to fashion their ideas into products, start new companies with their savings, and hire Americans as we saw so abundantly during the technology boom which is now experiencing a revival.

Bush presented a well-thought out incentive program that will help us get a handle on uncontrolled immigration and potential terrorists within our borders. It recognizes reality and has political side benefits.