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I'd better tell Best Buy and Circuit City to get rid of all those copies.

Yeah, and they're just flying off the shelves like hotcakes, right? /SARCASM

Not! Are you seriously denying that the vast majority of people get Windows preinstalled with their machines (and thus don't pay retail or install the software themselves) -- or do you not understand the term "practically nobody buys Windows retail and installs it themselves"?

For average user desktop systems, the installer usuall won't run at a lower level account because they don't provide enough privileges, that is if that user even knows other types of privilege groups exist.

That poor choice has nothing to do with the design of Windows.

Yet on a Mac, users get it out of the box with an administrator account that can do almost everything any user could want to do, and without support calls.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. As I pointed out in previous posts, it's an OEM choice. Apple produces OSX. It is the OEM. Consequently, I'm not surprised that Apple preconfigures its machines with appropriate accounts. But blaming Microsoft for Dell or Gateway's failure is just BS -- and you know it.

I wouldn't give my mom a Linux box either. But Mac is brain-dead easy to use for anyone, and it has the same privilege system and shares a lot of the components found in Linux. What about that? Would you say a Windows system out of the box is more secure than a Mac system? Why?

Whether something is more secure "out of the box" is a worthless consideration -- because, to be useful for the average user, the machine needs to be configured. For Apple, "out of the box" means Apple has preconfigured the machine to its specifications and delivered it to the user. For Dell or Gateway, "out of the box" means Microsoft gave them the OEM discs, Dell or Gateway preconfigured it (inadequately, as I've said before), and then delivered it to the user. Thus, out of the box is only useful if you accept the proposition that the OEM adequately configures the OS.

Not! Are you seriously denying that the vast majority of people get Windows preinstalled with their machines

No, it's the upgrades which are usually purchased. But the upgrade is the same thing, just requires proof of an existing OS (whether installed or by having a CD).

That poor choice has nothing to do with the design of Windows.

Microsoft designed it to be insecure out of the box to make it possible for the average user to do anything he would normally want to, just as the OEMs do. I'd say it does.

Apple produces OSX. It is the OEM. Consequently, I'm not surprised that Apple preconfigures its machines with appropriate accounts. But blaming Microsoft for Dell or Gateway's failure is just BS

The basic architecture of a *nix system for years has had this better structure of user accounts. Microsoft has had their current poor structure since NT.

For Apple, "out of the box" means Apple has preconfigured the machine to its specifications and delivered it to the user.

They configure it to a pretty much standard *nix configuration for security. Dell and Gateway also configure their computers to a standard Windows configuration, as does Microsoft itself when they sell the product. Face it, Windows standards are deficient.

Given Microsoft's recent stress on security, you'd think this would be one good way to help, but hey haven't. Maybe they could up the privileges of Power User a bit and make that the standard user account. But they didn't. I am getting the feeling that, despite all the fine tuning possible with Windows user accounts, privileges are designed in such a way as to preclude being able to do the *nix equivalent of admin and root.