Saturn 5 Blueprints Safely in Storage

space.com ^ | 13 March 2000 | By Michael Paine

[Dead Dog]

Saturn 5 Blueprints Safely in Storage

A NASA official has denied a claim made by a book author that blueprints for the mighty Saturn 5 rocket used to push Apollo astronauts to the moon were lost.

The denial came in response to a recent story in SPACE.com that reported on a claim John Lewis made in his 1996 book, Mining the Sky, that he went looking for the Saturn 5 blueprints a few years ago and concluded, incredibly, they had been "lost."

Paul Shawcross, from NASA's Office of Inspector General, came to the agency's defense in comments published on CCNet -- a scholarly electronic newsletter covering the threat of asteroids and comets. Shawcross said the Saturn 5 blueprints are held at the Marshall Space Flight Center on microfilm.

"There is no point in even contemplating trying to rebuild the Saturn 5 ... The real problem is the hundreds of thousands of parts that are simply not manufactured any more."

"The Federal Archives in East Point, Georgia, also has 2,900 cubic feet of Saturn documents," he said. "Rocketdyne has in its archives dozens of volumes from its Knowledge Retention Program. This effort was initiated in the late '60s to document every facet of F 1 and J 2 engine production to assist in any future restart."

Shawcross cautioned that rebuilding a Saturn 5 would require more than good blueprints.

"The problem in recreating the Saturn 5 is not finding the drawings, it is finding vendors who can supply mid-1960's vintage hardware," he wrote, "and the fact that the launch pads and vehicle assembly buildings have been converted to space shuttle use, so you have no place to launch from.

"By the time you redesign to accommodate available hardware and re-modify the launch pads, you may as well have started from scratch with a clean sheet design," he wrote.

In years past, rumors have abounded that in the 1970s the White House or Congress had the Saturn 5 plans destroyed "to prevent the technology from falling into the wrong hands".

That seems doubtful -- it would be a formidable terrorist group that decided to build a Saturn 5 to wreak havoc on the world, or build a lunar base. Also, by the1970s, the Soviets apparently had given up on the race to the moon.

Geoffrey Hughes from the Rotary Rocket Company supported Shawcross's view.

"There is no point in even contemplating trying to rebuild the Saturn 5," he said. "Having a complete set of Saturn 5 blueprints would do us no good whatsoever. True, we would still be able to bend the big pieces of metal fairly easily. But they are not the problem.

"The real problem is the hundreds of thousands of other parts, some as apparently insignificant as a bolt or a washer, that are simply not manufactured any more. Everything would have to be redone. So a simple rebuild would be impossible. The only real answer would be to start from scratch and build anew using modern parts and processes. Yet another immense challenge!"

It turns out that NASA is taking on that challenge, but not necessarily to chase asteroids.

Engineers at NASA's Marshall Space Flight Center are working on designs for a new giant launch vehicle called Magnum. It would use a curious mix of Russian rocket engines -- derived from the abandoned Soviet Energia rocket program -- and newly developed strap-on, liquid-fueled boosters that would first be tested out on space shuttles.

The Magnum would use the space shuttle launch facilities at Cape Canaveral and could launch 80 tons (81,280 kilograms) of payload into low Earth orbit (LEO). This compares with around 20 tons (20,320 kilograms) for the piloted space shuttle, and for un-piloted vehicles like the U.S.' Titan 4-B and the European Space Agency's Ariane 5. Its lift capacity, however, would be less than the 100 tons (101,600 kilograms) that the Saturn 5 and Energia could manage.

[bonesmccoy]

EGAD! It's posting from sci.space!

The sci.space.policy groups were discussing EXACTLY this issue six to eight years ago. A search at google of Mars/Moon/sci.space discussion shows some interesting discussions.

Are you a former Sci.space junkie?

[FreedomCalls]

I totally agree with you. It could even be built using a modular concept where extra strap-ons could give it extra heft when needed.

By the way, what is wrong with using Energia? Production on it could be restarted rather more easily than re-building the Saturn V or starting the Magnum program.

[bonesmccoy]

Do you have personal experience in the space program? Are you an engineer?

[RightWhale]

Remember Y2K? Dragging retired COBOL prograsmmers away from their porch swings. Gads, what a fiasco!

[XBob]

194 - "Just the EPA requirements would kill this project before it got started. It's still hard for me to believe that at KSC, rainwater is handled as "hazardous waste" and hauled off to a disposal site at a cost of over one dollar per gallon. (Exceeds the EPA requirement for Zinc after it has come in contact with the galvanized drain piping.)"

Sort of right - from my personal experience in about 1990: there are collection ponds at each pad, to catch the rain and launch water. Each one is governed by a separate and distinct EPA regulation. Regularly, and after each launch, many 55 gallon drums of precipitates are dumped ino the ponds. And they 'precipitate' out the 'impurities'. After about 6 weeks (if I remember correctly), they pump out the ponds crud, which is put into 55 gallon drums, and sent as hazardous waste to an underground disposal site in Alabama. The shipping cost at that time was about $350 per barrel.

Wiltech had the contract to do this. They also performed water testing. Tap water did not reach required EPA tests, and had to be disposed of as hazardous waste. Canal water, could not be returned to the canals from which it came, as it failed to meet EPA specs.

Any time sand blasting was done, it required a special EPA permit. Canvas tarpaulins had to be spread out and collect all the residue (particularly on the gantries), and then the paint chips, sand and 'gunk' collected in the tarpaulins which all were disposed of as 'hazardous waste'.

[XBob]

194 - "This is nothing more than wishful thinking by George W. Bush."

LOL - Very true, plus, the waste of about $1 billion he allocated or was it 800-900 million?

[XBob]

197 - last I saw them in 1992, Many of the rusting hulk remnants were sitting in some fields down near the Hypergolic Maintenance Facility (HMF), still rusting away in the weeds, with everybody afraid to touch them because of EPA requirements.

[XBob]

197 - "These people who think going back to the moon will be easy if we can only find "the blueprints" don't have a clue. No offence to any FReepers, but it just isn't that simple."

How true.

[XBob]

191 - Interesting info bones, but not what I was after. There was a story floating around, years ago, that they actually began building a new pad and facilities for the 'bigger than saturn5' launch facility at KSC. Some concrete was actually poured. And then there was a quietus, it suddenly stopped, and even the poured concrete had to be destroyed and literally dug up.

Long time ago, around Carter's time, and just a story, but I was hoping someone would know about it.

[skyhntr]

I understand the concerns of trying to "modify" or "bring up to code" the original spec's.. but I don't see the problem concerning the abilities to obtain mil-spec hardware. This concern makes me think of the $700 "mil-spec" ball peen hammers from Ace Hardware down the street. hardware is hardware. (I only issue this concern for hardware) other parts ie; skins, electronics, propulsion and other space specific equipment needs are a whole different subject all together. We KNOW the Saturn works. it lifts what, 20k tons more than we need at the moment. Even IF we had to start from close to scratch, Geee would our economy be able to handle a few new job openings around the country for all the people who have been laid off in the last few years to fill the positions that would open up to build all the new parts.(and of course with major security concerns, we would only be able to employ US citizens.. No H1B's or Illegal Aliens I mean UNDOCUMENTED CITIZENS) I think the only thing we could gain from dealing with Russian technology is their studies in the "longevity in space" area. Skylab only lasted for 10 years where as the Russian MIR surpassed it's life expectancy by 20 years(That should be how our products are built) and their Studies of longevity in space on Human Physiology would be equally helpful
IMHO

[XBob]

190 - Well, I personally turned up the burning story, twice, from two separate people, at two separate times at KSC. One guy worked at KSC, was a Lockheed guy, ex-Rockwell type, the other was a Rockwell type who had moved from Downey to KSC. Neither knew each other was there, both told the same story to me separately. I personally got them together and re-introduced them to each other again, and they got busy telling some old 'war stories' from years before when they had worked together.

So, what is really true, about Saturn5 prints, I don't know. But Rockwell owning the shuttle orbiter design is pretty standard kowledge.

[skyhntr]

W00t!! we're ready for that. There are still die-hard schools around the country pushing COBOL, CICS, DB2 in their curriculum.. In fact Pick me!! :) Nine months of COBOL!! I'm a recent BS in CIS and I like COBOL, (Why did that sound like an AA intro *lol*)and I'd love to find a COBOL job opening for entry level.. maybe with this announcement of a direction in the space industry there will be an opening for me!!

[XBob]

204 - "Remember Y2K? Dragging retired COBOL prograsmmers away from their porch swings. Gads, what a fiasco!"

Yes Sir - Do you remember too, xlinton sending teams of our precious few cobol programmers to china, to help them survive, while we didn't have enough here?

[RightWhale]

Some Finance Dept printouts still have that COBOL look. But I believe IT when they say they are all on versions of VBA now. Maybe I'll ask them to load that 1/2 inch FORTRAN IV tape I still have in the bottom drawer.

[RightWhale]

No, did Clinton do that? Was he trying to help, or hinder?

[JoeSchem]

The Apollo Moon Mission profile passed up Earth Orbit Rendezvous because it was viewed as too complex. In those days, of course, it took a computer the size of a city block nearly three days to compute an orbital rendezvous. Today it can be done in a few minutes on a laptop.

What this means is that we don't need to rebuild the Saturn 5. We can launch the component pieces of a Moon Mission into Earth orbit using off-the-shelf boosters, such as the Titan, and then rendezvous and proceed to the Moon.

[XBob]

David Weeks' Saturn V Technical Drawings -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Six years of research has finally paid off for space modelers: David Weeks has brought forth a ten sheet set of drawings detailing the exterior and interior of the most powerful operational launch vehicle ever produced. Drawn in constant 1/48th scale and reproduced on 24 X 36 paper, these drawings provide details not available anywhere else. The example scans hardly do justice to this set.

[skyhntr]

Hmmm The only finance dept. that would consider hiring me was Enron.. I don't want to say that I wasn't at the head of my class in Accounting But..... the only seat behind me was out in the hall ;)*lol*
I've seen a few books on Fortran but have never played with it.. I have gotten to play with Assembly Language on the old TRS-80's which was fun as well... Maybe I should pull my old Timex Sinclaire out of the closet and start boning up eh??

[skyhntr]

There is no doubt about it... The Saturn V was a beauitul piece of work. Thx for the link!!

[RightWhale]

I don't think anybody posts on FR with less than a VIC-20. Maybe somebody could try an RCA COSMAC and establish a new lower bound.