[BushCountry]

This debate is curious one.  However, I am stuck in the middle. I grew up on the south side of Chicago in a deeply Hispanic neighborhood, where I was the minority (blond haired blue eyed, now graying though). Several restaurants close to my house didn't even have an English speaking person in them, I had to point to an item on the menu for what I wanted (the seafood soup was unbelievably good).

What I observed is that most of the people in my neighborhood were honorable, hard working, and dedicated to their families. They loved their adopted home (America) and they loved Mexico. But, they hated their corrupt government (a hundred times more corrupt then here) and knew that only poverty and despair awaits them in their country of birth. They escaped to America to provide a better life for themselves in spite loving their home country.

In spite of what other posters claim, they would not willing play host to terrorists anymore then the average American. They do not deserve to be flung back across the border by catapults. Borders do not need to mined, thus blowing up families trying to escape poverty. For most of us, it is just quirk of fate that we were born in America and a little compassionate conservatism is called for.

I truly do not know all the answers to this problem and believe that there is no easy solution. So, with every thing being said, even with the reasoned debate on this thread, I have seen no real solutions discussed or debated.

My rant about everyone over-blowing the immigration issue out of proportion!

1. The total number of immigrants per year (including illegal and refugees) is somewhat less than it was in the peak years at the start of the 20th century, when the US population was less half as large its current population. The rate of immigration relative to the population is low rather than high. Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what is was in the peak years in the early part of the 20th century..
2. In the early part to of the 20th century (1910-1920) the major debate in politics was that immigrants form southern Europe were going to destroy this country.  Those sneaky "I"talians and the dirty Irishman would bring this country to ruination. It seems the hatred has shifted to immigrants from Mexico?
3. The U.S. government has forecast a shortage of 20 million workers by 2026 due to the aging baby boom and job growth.  Under the conditions that we now confront, we should be very carefully focused on the contribution which skilled people from abroad, (as well as) unskilled people from abroad, can contribute to this country, as they have for generation after generation.
4. By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. In the next fifty years this demographic shift will transform politics and business.  If us conservatives  lose the Hispanic vote, then we lose the nation.
5. In the last decade hi tech professional immigrants have made extraordinary contributions to cutting edge US industries. It is estimated that almost one quarter of Silicon valley firms were established by immigrants. 
6. Businesses founded by immigrants are a source of substantial economic and fiscal gain for U.S. citizens. Ten high-tech firms founded by immigrants (Intel, Sun Microsystems, Computer Associates, Solectron Lam Research, LSI Logic, AST Computer, Wang Laboratories, Amtel, Gupta Technologies, and Cypress Semiconductor) generated $32 billion in revenues in 2002. These and other businesses started by immigrants add at least another $29 billion to the total amount of taxes paid by immigrants.
7. Immigrant entrepreneurs have revitalized neighborhood; from Dominicans in Manhattan's Washington Heights to Cubans in Miami's Little Havana, Hispanic immigrants have transformed their communities into thriving economically dynamic strongholds.  Of particular note is the resurgence of small business, which thirty years ago was in decay. Several researchers have suggested that immigration has encouraged the entrepreneurial drive of the total population, significantly contributing to this transformation.
8. The average education of new immigrants has been increasing with each successive generation. The proportion of adult immigrants with 8 or fewer years of education has been decreasing and the proportion of adult immigrants with 16 years or more has been increasing. The proportion of immigrants with bachelor 's or postgraduate degrees is much higher than the proportion of the native labor force.
9. Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggests the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services. A poll of the most respected economists found a consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically.  However overall immigrants fare well in terms of income with adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249).  There goes the low wage myth.
10. Most immigrants arrive in the United States in the prime of their working years. More than 70 percent of immigrants are over the age of 18 when they arrive in the United States. That means there are roughly 17.5 million immigrants in the United States today whose education and upbringing were paid for by the citizens of the sending country, not American taxpayers. The windfall to the United States of obtaining this human capital at no expense to American taxpayers is roughly $1.43 trillion. This makes immigrants a fiscal bargain for our country.

[Restorer]

I agree with many of your points. However, I strongly suggest you immediately don your asbestos pyjamas.

[Dazedcat]

"In the early part to of the 20th century (1910-1920) the major debate in politics was that immigrants form southern Europe were going to destroy this country. Those sneaky "I"talians and the dirty Irishman would bring this country to ruination. It seems the hatred has shifted to immigrants from Mexico?"

Those sneaky Italians and dirty Irishmen came to this country legally and openly. This debate is about granting people who've broken laws a blanket amnesty for doing so. Although I agree with many other of your points, this is about illegal and unlawful aliens.......NOT immigration as defined and allowed by law.

If Clinton had proposed this, my guess is you would be screaming treason until your larnyx bled. But a Republican makes it ok????

[Zipporah]

My rant about everyone over-blowing the immigration issue out of proportion!..Get on the clue bus you've missed your stop.

[Little Ray]

What part of ILLEGAL don't you understand?
Most folks here don't have any problems with LEGAL immigrants. You know: the ones who wait their turn and jump through the INS hoops?
It is the ILLEGAL part we object to, and the President is proposing to reward a CRIMINAL act.

[djf]

Sorry. I am a WASP, who's roots in this country have been followed back to about 1700.


I'm sick and tired of not being able to understand someone behind a counter somewhere. Every day, I see the government bending over backwards to placate all sorts of people of color, many miscreants and malfeasors. Meanwhile, I see more and more just regular folks standing in unemployment lines, interestingly enough, most of those folks have a very good command of the English language.

This whole initiative can be summed up with four words:
California, Texas, Election, Hispanics.

Actually, now, a fifth word comes to mind:
Brown-nosing

[kingu]

Two points that are in complete error, let me help by correcting them one by one... By the year 2050 according to Census projections racial and ethnic minorities will outnumber non-Hispanic whites. In the next fifty years this demographic shift will transform politics and business. If us conservatives lose the Hispanic vote, then we lose the nation.

Legal immigrants, of whom Hispanic voters are part of, hate illegal aliens. Everyone keeps forgetting that California, the Hispanic capitol of the United States, has outlawed (though it was overturned) all services for illegal aliens, outlawed teaching in Spanish in the schools, etc. Who do you think voted for these things in our overwhelming Democrat state? That's right, the Hispanics. Exit polls indicated that most of those who voted against were non-Hispanic whites. So no matter how many times people try to scream it, this pony just don't do that trick - pandering to illegal aliens drives away the legal immigrant vote.

Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits. New data suggests the undocumented pay about 46 percent as much in taxes as do natives, but use about 45 percent as much in services. A poll of the most respected economists found a consensus that both legal and illegal immigrants are beneficial economically. However overall immigrants fare well in terms of income with adult, foreign-born, naturalized citizens actually have higher adjusted gross incomes (averaging $40,502) than families with U.S.-born citizens only ($35,249). There goes the low wage myth.

You're mixing two things. Legal immigrants do well, they are trying to make a future here. Illegal immigrants don't, they're trying to get money to send back home, or to temporarily support their family. Millions of illegals did not apply during the last amnesty period, precisely because they are Mexicans (or Canadians) and don't want to be Americans. Beyond, the bull of the tax to services -- Go to any community which has a large illegal population. Go to a store. Get stuff, and tell the clerk you won't pay tax. They won't bat an eye, just hit the no tax key. Go to swap meets, no tax. I've had people come into my store and tell me that they won't pay sales tax, and I tell them to go another state that doesn't have it.

Beyond, illegals drive down property values through overcrowding and a higher incidence of petty crimes, the Spanish only signs and stores also continue to drive down the property values. This cuts into the tax income.

No payroll taxes, no income taxes, no property taxes.

The study was a complete fiction created by the liberals.

Now, that being said, this worker program sounds fine -- So long as the borders are shut down and the illegals are kicked out once their temporary card expires. They apply for their temporary card and send their families back to Mexico. Bush will have my complete support at that point.. But I sincerely doubt that will happen. Because some wacko who claims to be a conservative will say that you're killing the Hispanic vote and we need them.. It's about time that they start listening to the Hispanic voters and get rid of these illegals.

[richtig_faust]

Hey crap head. Learn the differnce between these two terms:

Legal.. illegal. And how much each costs the taxpayers and how much we want them.

[hedgetrimmer]

There is a difference.

The illegals are sending money to their home country to a tune of $20 Billion a year. That did not happen in previous immigration surges.

The money represents almost 50% of some south American nations GDP. That did not happen in previous immigration surges.

The home countries establish hometown clubs in America to make sure the illegals send the money back to their home countries. They have established hometown clubs in every major city in America and they carry a huge clout. That did not happen in previous immigration surges.

Since the remittance money is such a huge amount multinational banks like Wells Fargo want to get in on the transfers. They pull the strings behind the scenes of the Bush administration to make the amnesty happen. The problem is, that they will not rest when 10 million illegals are granted amnesty because that will cap the amount of money they can generate by handling the remittances. So they will be forever pushing for more and more illegal immigration so they amount of money they make from the remittances will continue to rise. That did not happen in previous immigration surges.

Because the remittance money is such a huge percent of the foreign country's GDP, there would be revolution in many if it were stopped, or at the very least finanacial ruin for many. That did not happen in previous immigration surges.

The remittance money is redistribution of wealth, it is lost to Americans and they get no vote or say because remittances are not regulated by Congress. This is a usurpation of our Constitutional government. Supporting the amnesty is supporting the usurpation of our Constitutional government.

[leprechaun9]

Immigration as a proportion of population is about a third of what is was in the peak years in the early part of the 20th century..

A slight rain in the presence of a flood condition does a lot more damage than that same amount of rain, absent the flood.

[jimt]

Illegal aliens contribute about as much to the public coffers in taxes as they receive in benefits.

I have some sea-front property in Austin I'd like to sell you.

This bald asertion of yours borders on idiocy. Numerous studies have shown that illegals are a net tax drain, with their consumption of tax dollars VASTLY exceeding any contributions they make. If you believe this fairy tale, hows about picking up the excess costs of ONE illegal family in Texas? As a contribution to FR ? Or even to Jorge ?