Hometown Support for Pete Rose Strong (but Limited)

The Cincinnati Enquirer ^ | 7 Jan 04 | Howard Wilkinson

[xzins]

By Howard Wilkinson
The Cincinnati Enquirer

Longtime Reds fans are hardly shocked by the revelation that Pete Rose bet on baseball. On Monday, many said they suspected it all along. Yet, for the most part, they forgive him.

"He is the hometown boy; people are protective of him here," said Kevin Grace, a University of Cincinnati archivist and sports researcher and author who is an avid baseball fan. "He gets a pass from a lot of people."

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

Knowing that the all-time hits leader and sparkplug of the Big Red Machine was betting on baseball games - including Reds games - while he managed the team in the 1980s has done little to diminish support in Rose's hometown for his reinstatement to Major League Baseball and his admission into the Hall of Fame.

"Nothing can take away from what Pete did on the field. He played for the love of the game and there was nobody better," said Helen Thomas, owner of the Skywalk Baseball card and memorabilia shop on Vine Street downtown.

"If you keep him out on the basis of morality, there's a whole lot of people in the Hall of Fame you are going to have to take out."

Thomas' shop is testimony to the pull Rose still exerts on baseball fans in his hometown, and to the value of his autograph. A framed, autographed photo of Rose suspended in mid-air as he slides head-first into third base has a $249 price tag, and a base bag signed by the Hit King can be had for $150.

Thomas said the admission by Rose that he bet on baseball, after 14 years of denying it, "is probably a relief for himself and everybody else."

Cincinnati baseball fans, Thomas said, "have always been willing to forgive a lot when it comes to Pete."

There is ample - albeit, unscientific - evidence that is the case.

An unscientific Enquirer-WCPO-TV poll shows 66 percent of respondents want Rose reinstated to Baseball, and 81 percent said he should be admitted into the Hall of Fame.

But when it came to allowing Rose to manage the Reds once more, there was a split: 46 percent said yes; 44 percent said no.

Andrew Althaus, a Reds season-ticket holder who makes the 280-mile round trip from his home in Bluffton, Ohio, to see every Reds home game, said he considers himself a "baseball traditionalist."

Players or managers betting on the game is wrong, Althaus said.

PETE ROSE

"He really doesn't belong back in the game after doing that," Althaus said. "But things have changed. We are a forgiving society, I suppose. I don't want to see Pete managing the Reds again, but I wouldn't mind seeing him throwing out the first pitch at Great American on Opening Day."

In downtown Cincinnati Monday morning, 65-year-old Frank Raffenberg of Green Township said he had little doubt all along that Rose wasn't telling the truth about betting on baseball. "I can't say I believed him. It seemed obvious he did it," Raffenberg said. "But he's done his time. And nobody can say he wasn't a Hall of Fame player."

Grace said he believes Rose's hold on baseball fans is strongest in his hometown but is not limited to Cincinnati.

"I think there are baseball fans all over the country who want to see him in the Hall of Fame," Grace said. "He was somebody who was easy to root for. He played hard. He embodies hard work and determination, pulling yourself up by your bootstraps."

Fotis Paskal, the owner and manager of the Sports Page restaurant downtown, is one of those Reds fans unfazed by the fact that Rose spent nearly 15 years denying he bet on baseball. "It is time to let it go," Paskal said.

"How can you take the guy who has more hits than anybody in the history of the game and tell him he can't be in the Hall of Fame?," he said. "It's crazy. I don't think he will ever manage in this town again. But he ought to be allowed to make a living in baseball."

---

E-mail hwilkinson@enquirer.com

Americans favor forgiving Rose

The Associated Press

A majority of Americans believe Pete Rose should be allowed back into baseball and to enter the Hall of Fame even if he says he gambled on baseball, according to a poll released Monday.

The ABC News-ESPN poll was taken Dec. 17-21, before Rose's admission of gambling became public. But the poll asked whether people thought he gambled on baseball and was able to measure the attitudes about Rose and baseball for those who already suspected him of gambling.

The poll found that 66 percent of those surveyed believe baseball's career hits leader did bet on baseball games. About the same number said Rose's 1989 lifetime ban from the game should be lifted and felt he should be eligible for the Hall of Fame.

Q&A WITH JOHN FAY

Send your Reds questions
 to jfay@enquirer.com.

	Search our site by keyword:
Search also: News | Jobs | Homes | Cars | Classifieds | Obits | Coupons | Events | Dining Movies/DVDs | Video Games | Hotels | Golf | Visitor's Guide | Maps/Directions | Yellow Pages

CINCINNATI.COM  |  ENQUIRER  |  POST  |  WCPO  |  CIN WEEKLY  |  Classifieds  |  Cars  |  Homes  |  Jobs  |  Customer Service

Copyright 1995-2003. The Cincinnati Enquirer, a Gannett Co. Inc. newspaper.
Use of this site signifies your agreement to the Terms of Service (updated December 19, 2002).

: Click here for link to send cartoon as a postcard

Do you believe he should be admitted to the Hall of Fame?
Yes	2989	(77.62%)
No	738	(19.16%)
Unsure	123	(3.19%)
Would you like to see him return to manage the Reds?
Yes	880	(22.85%)
No	2691	(69.88%)
Unsure	279	(7.24%)
Do you feel he has a gambling problem?
Yes	2934	(76.19%)
No	292	(7.58%)
Unsure	624	(16.20%)
If you answered yes above, do you feel he has changed his life since his days of managing the Reds?
Yes	824	(21.40%)
No	1883	(48.90%)
Unsure	1143	(29.68%)
Total Replies : 3851

---

Powered By Absolute Poll Manager XE
By XIGLA SOFTWARE

[xzins]

Cincy baseball fans are pretty sophisticated.

They separate Pete's playing time from his managing time.

He should make the Hall, they say, for his playing time, but other than that he should be out of baseball because of his managing time when the gambling occurred.

His hits had nothing to do with his later gambling as a manager.

[Wrigley]

Ryne Sandberg and Ron Santo should be in the HOF before Rose. I'm of the opinion he shouldn't get in until he dies.

[Credo]

How about Shoeless Joe? Rose's records are more about longetivity (although still impressive) than pure ability. There was a lot more to the Big Red Machine than Rose.

[xzins]

I think I might modify it to say that it cannot happen until after age 68 or official retirement, whichever comes first.

[xzins]

Technically, Shoeless Joe should be permitted into the HoF.

His was a lifetime ban.

His life has been over for some time now.

[Wrigley]

I don't believe Rose should benefit finacially from being elected to the HOF.

[xzins]

I wouldn't know how to prevent it.

Rose has been living off of his baseball career ever since he left baseball.

I'm thinking that the loss of notoriety will actually hurt his finances.

[tomakaze]

Here's something I've got an answer to - Did he bet against his team?

[nickcarraway]

``My Prison Without Bars''?? Pete Rose continues to embarass himself. He should be sent to Iraq to do community service with athletes who really suffered.

Pete Rose fails to exhibit even the slightest particle of regret or realization that his actions were wrong. Even Bill Clinton managed to pretend. If anything, what he has shown in the last two weeks convinced me he is not ready to be rewarded by baseball.

I still can't understand how a man that age can still be a juvenile brat.

[PBRSTREETGANG]

Andrew Althaus, a Reds season-ticket holder who makes the 280-mile round trip from his home in Bluffton, Ohio, to see every Reds home game, said he considers himself a "baseball traditionalist."

This guy drives 140 miles each way to 81 games a year? "Traditionalist" isn't the first word that leaps to mind.

[xzins]

I've always been willing to go with what Rose said in the absence of a trial.

He'd said he never bet against his team. But he also said he never bet on baseball.

Who knows?

[xzins]

I don't think he gets it either.

I'm content to make him eligible for the HoF for his player years, but not permit him to do anything else for baseball. (Perhaps scouting. I'd allow him to be a scout for some ML team. That's not really a job in the day-to-day operations of baseball.)

[beckett]

Fay Vincent savaged Pete Rose last night on Charley Rose and frankly, although I didn't need much convincing, he persuaded me that Selig puts in danger the game of baseball itself if he allows this arrogant cretin to weasel his way into the Hall of Fame.

Pete Rose's "confession" is nothing more than a cynical manipulation of credulous baseball fans. He does not apologize in the book, either for his gambling or to the baseball officials who nailed him for his gambling 14 years ago.

So what if he only bet for the Reds? That does not excuse him from he charge of corruption. What signal did he send to the betting community on those days when he did not bet on his team? He was telling them "Hey guys -- my team is weak today for XYZ reasons. Now's the time to bet against us."

Pete Rose, like every other athlete, is more than just his performance on the field during his playing days. He is a seriously flawed, arrogant human being whose actions put the credibility of the game in jeopardy. For that he should be banned from the game forever and denied entry into the Hall of Fame.

[vwrcmember]

You sez: "I've always been willing to go with what Rose said in the absence of a trial."


I sez: While not a trial, the Dowd (?) report had plenty of evidence of his wrongdoings. It was never released as part of the agreement where Pete Rose agreed to his lifetime ban. He then spent years saying that there was no evidence that he bet on baseball.

The character issue is separate from the gambling issue. The game of baseball has decided that gambling is a cardinal sin and is more damaging to the game than any other behavior available to those associated with it. For that reason, the lifetime ban is the prescribed punishment.

I know you didn't say it, but the argument that if Pete is kept out, then there are a bunch of others who need to be removed is ignoring this fundamental difference between gambling on the game and other nasty character traits.

*If* he is reinstated and allowed to be voted into the hall (I would love to see him not get voted in), there should be a huge bronze plaque next to his playing stats that details the circumstances surrounding his ban and reinstatement.

I fear that Bud Selig is trying to salvage his own legacy as commissioner (who else do we know that is worried about his legacy above all else?), and will do the popular thing and reinstate Rose, rather than uphold his position as protector of the game.

[Dr. Frank fan]

Did he bet against his team?

Does it matter?

People who think it "makes it okay" if he only bet in favor of, and never against, his team, apparently don't know very much about baseball.

Rose was the manager of a team and thus made their strategic decisions. If he had a bet on (in favor of) his team for Saturday's game, and not for Sunday's game, this raises the temptation to pull out all the stops winning Saturday's game (using up all the relievers, moving the #1 starting pitcher up a day..) at the possible expense of Sunday's game.

Keep the sleazebag out for life.

[tomakaze]

re: Does it matter?
 
As far as letting him back in? no, it don't.
As far as my personal opinion of the guy, yes it does.

[The Raven]

[xzins]

We've been getting via WLW radio excerpts of Charlie Gibson's abc interview with Rose. It looks like they are absolutely going to roast him tonight.

I'm still of the opinion that Rose should be in the HoF, IF HE CAN GET VOTED IN, but not in day-to-day baseball ops.

[NYCVirago]

"Nothing can take away from what Pete did on the field. He played for the love of the game and there was nobody better," said Helen Thomas, owner of the Skywalk Baseball card and memorabilia shop on Vine Street downtown. "If you keep him out on the basis of morality, there's a whole lot of people in the Hall of Fame you are going to have to take out."

It figures somebody named Helen Thomas would say something so idiotic.