About the Moderators' recent efforts on the Illegal Alien threads: keep an open mind

January 7th, 2003 | Sabertooth

[Cultural Jihad]

... who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists.

You have raised such a smear only yesterday that anyone who disagrees with you must be on a mission to parrot Democratic talking points. Anyone can use the same ploy you used, such as claiming someone who says trying to solve illegal immigration in ways they disagree with is so terrible and that President Bush is a traitor, a ruiner of the nation, and a back-stabber, and no conservative ought to vote for him, must be a Democratic operative.

As for racist statements, they do appear all too often on the immigration threads. One has to wonder if Canadians were coming to work illegally rather than Mexicans or Salvadorans, this would hardly be an issue to those who whine about the rule of law being sacrosanct. The underlying impetus they all have are Michael Savage's smears about how these Southern immigrants are the low-class bums of the 3rd world, and how "border-culture-language" are paramount to anything else, including justice and mercy.

[Maigrey]

I think this act, Posse Comitatus is the primary reason why we won't use the US Military as boarder security.

I'm going to go read up on it more before I comment further.

[elli1]

On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists.

OTOH, I've seen a number of posters who use the phrases, Democrat talking point or liberal line or liberal talking point as an attempt to smear a poster who is making a valid point. Whenever I see this debate tactic being used, I assume that the one using it is either too lazy to refute the point w/ factual information or is simply incapable of doing so because the point is a valid one. As in, when all else fails, kill the messenger (rhetorically).

[Cyber Liberty]

I figured it was all your fault.

;^)

[Sabertooth]

You have raised such a smear only yesterday that anyone who disagrees with you must be on a mission to parrot Democratic talking points

No, not "anyone," not by any stretch, only those whose nerves are now being touched, who are, not coincidentally, those to whom I've specifically posted that observation.

You've gotten your chops busted for your baiting, and you're not used to it, but this is an example of the new attempt at evenhandeness by the Moderators on these threads.

[Lead Moderator]

I think both of you have valid points here, actually. I think what Sabertooth said, that there are those who "are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists", is true to an extent. I've seen it. We even had one returning troll show up last night in an incarnation that was doing just this. And I am sure it was just an act- that one has been here before as a rabid Buchananite and a rabid Libertarian and now as a rabid Bushie, and a long history of posting stuff from Indymedia.

But I have seen it go the other way. I have seen words that are commonly used and are not unusual be labelled as Democrat talking points. Now maybe I should sue the liberal media and Al Gore for certain phrasings being injected into the zeigeist, but I know that if someone uses the phrase anti-immigrant it doesn't mean they are trying to channel Paul Begala. It may not be the right label, but it isn't an attempt to make Democrat points.

Part of this effort is for old timers to lose part of the suspicions they have for the motivations of other old timers, even if they feel that their suspicions are well founded. Taking a step back and seeing if sincere debate can emerge from the rubble would be a welcome thing.

[PhiKapMom]

I pinged all of you from the Bush-Cheney '04 ping list to this thread of Sabertooth's so that you could see a very well written and thought out post.

Whether you agree or disagree with the President on the immigration changes he is going to offer today, remember these are changes he is recommending to Congress that will be voted on by the Congress. Please send your comments to your Congressman and both Senators who will be working on the proposed changes to the Immigration Laws of this Country. Time to be vocal to them on exactly what you feel about this issue as members of Congress need your input.

Asking all the Bush supporters when you engage in this argument about immigration to remain civil and post facts to refute someone's statements if you think they are wrong.

If both sides act in a civil manner, the ultimate loser will be those from the democRATs who would like to have this site implode from infighting among conservatives. We cannot let that happen and have to step up to the plate and show them we may disagree on issues including immigration but we are united in insuring that the liberal agenda of the DemocRATs is defeated.

Thanks again Saber!

PKM

[tubebender]

I can also see why they need to tread lightly, FreeRepublic does not need a racist label.

It will not help Jim Robs case against the city of Fresno if the defense can point out the racist posts on this fine Forum...

[RebelBanker]

Great post, Saber! You and I have disagreed on occasion and you have always been reasonable to me and other FReepers as far as I have seen, even if passions do get high. I appreciate an honest debate, but have no desire to participate in a flame war. I learn things in a debate, but just get irritated if people want to insult me for stating my opinions.

FReegards!

[angkor]

One has to wonder if Canadians were coming to work illegally rather than Mexicans or Salvadorans, this would hardly be an issue to those who whine about the rule of law being sacrosanct.

While there may be racist sentiment in occasional comments, the above example is absurd.

If there were 12 million Candians running around America, milling in front of the local 7-11 for work, using Candian ID's as their sole form of documentation, constantly being detained while crossing into Montana and Maine in the dark of night, then there would be huge outcry by the American public.

The only reason there isn't a more vociferous protest against illegals is because the charge of "racism" is leveled against those who raise the issue.

[Lead Moderator]

"is true to an extent. I've seen it. We even had one returning troll show up last night in an incarnation that was doing just this."

If this came across as saying that only trolls do this, that is not correct. Some here quite a while do as well.

[Lead Moderator]

I'm heading out. I'll be back later. I don't know if I will actually come back in to this thread, but I'll read it all. And I will reply to the mails that my offer above generates.

Thanks, LM

[cynicom]

yawn

[Sabertooth]

It will not help Jim Robs case against the city of Fresno if the defense can point out the racist posts on this fine Forum...

Nor does it help if false and cavalier charges of racism are allowed to stand.

That does nothing but give ammo to the opposition.

[mhking]

I'm glad there's a voice of reason that stands apart from either side, given the passion that this subject endears across the board.

[Columbine]

While I do a lot more reading than posting I want to say thank you for your efforts toward civil discussion.

As a conservative it isn't helpful to me to come here and read calls to vote for Howard Dean or not to vote at all.

But reasoned discussion of the actual issue is very helpful.

We have a very big problem and I would like to urge everyone to contact Congress as they seem to be our best hope.

[BOBTHENAILER]

I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping.

Nor are mine.

I didn't respond to your questions on the thread I pinged you to the other night, due to time and a reconsideration on my part as to the value of continuing a long running debate we've had.

This piece is, as usual, is very well written and thought out. Thanks.

[Poohbah]

Therefore, you must be Karl Rove, right? (c8

[ken5050]

I usually avoid those threads because they so often deteriorated, as has been recounted ad nauseum...however, in response to what the LM wrote about how they usually devolve into two camps, I would submit that there is a "third" group...those that wonder about why we are fingerprinting and photographing everyone deplaning at airports, yet our borders are wide open...THAST, I don't get...

[ken5050]

I usually avoid those threads because they so often deteriorated, as has been recounted ad nauseum...however, in response to what the LM wrote about how they usually devolve into two camps, I would submit that there is a "third" group...those that wonder about why we are fingerprinting and photographing everyone deplaning at airports, yet our borders are wide open...THAT, I don't get...