About the Moderators' recent efforts on the Illegal Alien threads: keep an open mind

January 7th, 2003 | Sabertooth

[Sabertooth]

You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.

I’ve mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year I’ve been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think I’ve generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I haven’t.

That said, there have been plenty of occasions where I’ve attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past I’ve made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets… to mixed results.

I’ve also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesn’t matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.

On the other hand, I’ve also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they aren’t moles for the L.A. Times.

Their perceptions of “bigots, bigots everywhere” and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.

It’s been my contention, and I’ve made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who don’t want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.

I’ll stipulate again that my own hands haven’t always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. I’ll also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.

Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.

A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.

Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bush’s announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.

He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)…

---

To: All

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.

2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.

I wanted to share with you my response:

I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.

There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.

There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.

The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.

To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.

I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.

Regards, LM

That is all.

262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator

[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 261 | View Replies | Report Abuse | link ]

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So, if it’s not clear already, the Lead Moderator’s statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.

Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as I’ve seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I haven’t received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there can’t be vigorous debate, and I’m hardly a party-liner in this.

Now, I’m certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.

As for the results, they’ve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods haven’t made an effort to be evenhanded. I’ve seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didn’t, and I’ve seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. I’ve seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isn’t sincere.

Are the Mods doing things exactly as I’d like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.

However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.

[Lead Moderator]

I just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:

[Maigrey]

There are those of us who know you are trying to plug a dam with a straw, and the difficulty with it.

Keep up the hard work!

[Neets]

Ah Saber my friend.

This post alone, cleared up quite a few misconceptions I had of you.

Thank you.

I appreciate your honesty in all matters, be it here, or on other forums.

[John Jorsett]

Interesting how conspiracy theories seem to bubble up on these occassions. I think it must be hardwired into the human brain, since I see the same phenomenon in Democrat forums. Or do they just WANT us to think that? Hmmmm ...

[yarddog]

Sounds like a fair offer however without knowing what was said it is kind of hard to know which ones to request.

BTW I recall a story on TV a few years ago showing dozens of rotting corpses on the South Africa-Mozambique border. It was not the SA's doing the killing but the Mozambique authorities trying to keep their citizens from entering that horrible country which the entire world condemned.

Funny thing is no one seemed to object to the Mozambique commies murdering people on the border.

[Lando Lincoln]

I support totally the efforts to maintain civil discourse on these threads. While not a frequent poster on the immigration threads, I am often astonished at how quickly they can disintegrate - and old slights referenced. These are serious issues and engaged people are likely to have passionate opinions. But, discourse need not be overly offensive or uncivil. When it is, real exchange of thoughts and ideas is lost. Hall monitors are sometimes required in the best institutions. Kudos to you, Sabertooth, for your efforts.

Lando

[dirtboy]

Well stated, Sabertooth. I would add one additional suggestion - that there be a confederacy of the willing - those on both sides of the debate who wish to have an open, honest debate with only the occasional elbow thrown - and have those people police posters on THEIR side of the debate and tell them that items such as hyperbole, racism, race-baiting, calls for violence, flame-baiting and DNC talking points are not welcome additions to the debate. I've found that, on thorny subjects, folks need to keep their own dugout clean and in order for threads to stay out of the Backroom.

[Rebelbase]

Thanks for the laugh!

[the gillman@blacklagoon.com]

As one of the oldest, crustiest, bomb throwers around, I want to say I am with you.

There is much dissagreement, but I'd hate to see the best news forum on the net fractured by the inability to control our emotions.

I will do my best in the time remaining to me here to be as polite as possible to those #@$&**! "!@$@#%&!" who disagree with me.

[theFIRMbss]

> I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart

Well, the real issue
may be that many people
simply went to schools

where reasoned exchange
was never taught. These people
are in a bind -- they

want to play, but don't
even have to "tools" to learn
to play by the rules.

[putupon]

posts referring to the President as “Jorge Arbusto,” which stopped being funny years ago,

Guily as charged, but I've never been smiling when I called the POTUS "Jorge".

Giving amnesty to the illegals is no laughing matter.

[browardchad]

Good post, Saber. I've always enjoyed reading your arguments, as well as the opposing point of view, when the conversation remains civil and on topic.

[RightWingMama]

I'm as interested in this issue as most people here are, but I won't wade into the fires of H#ll to discern the information.

Me either. My daughter-in-law is Hispanic and although she and her parents are "legal" there are lots of relatives that we question. They are all very nice hard working people...hence my confusion. I enjoy reading intelligent debate, but I don't even lurk anymore on these threads. Hopefully, things will change.

[Cold Heat]

I’ve got strong opinions and subjectivities here

of that, there is no doubt! LOL!

I have no objections to what has happened. I believe the extra attention will make both sides of this argument more succinct and factual, and at the same time less emotional.

I also understand that there is no way to eliminate emotion for arguments.

Thus-far, I find the extra attention by the mods as helpful.

"you now may return to your regularly scheduled programming"

[Alamo-Girl]

Thanks for the ping!

[Rebelbase]

I applaud the tolerance you have shown toward mine and other's posts that are critical of President Bush's recent legislative actions and proposals.

Not to long ago if someone called the President's actions "socialist" that poster would have been banned. It shows growth in this forum that we recognize there is a problem within the republican party as it relates to conservative ideals and the failure of those ideals to be implemented by the current administration.

Again, Thank-You.

[Maigrey]

I don't think any of us are laughing, but using degrading names for people, even if they could be construed as correct, detract from the argument you are trying to make.

Please, continue. I look forward to reading more of your viewpoint.

[PhiKapMom]

Thank you for posting these comments -- very well stated.

As an example, one day I got told to get off the immigration threads because I was a Bush supporter. At the time I was agreeing with some Arizona people about their borders needing to be secured -- had nothing to do with Bush. Freeper saw my screen name and came after me without bothering to read what I had to say.

Sincerely hope that people listen to what you have to say and stop and think before they post. I have seen enough flame wars to last a lifetime as I am sure a lot of other people have. All we do in flame wars is give ammunition to the enemies of conservatives. IMO think the escalation of rhetoric and nastiness in flame wars are fueled by those very enemies of conservatives posing as Bush supporters and/or arch conservatives when they are neither. Most likely some people fueling the flame wars are from the librals pretending to be conservatives.

During the month of December, I spent a lot of time reading on FR and very little posting. It has been bothering me for sometime that some statements I see from "supposed" conservatives are right off the democRAT sites. That makes no sense to me at all and I wanted to stand back and observe for awhile. There are always disagreements but some of them have gone way over the top and fueled by the same type rhetoric that I would see on DU or RATs.com.

Thanks again for your post and this thread!

[Maigrey]

Fair enough.

I also understand your viewpoint, where you are torn on the issue, since you have family involved.

Alas, there is no simple issue here, where someone won't be p!ssed off with the action or result. I'm going to stick with my DRINO skin today, and hope that is enough to deal with the flames of this issue.

[joesnuffy]

When I was in RVN the VC used to not only hide among the women and children...they were the women and children...

Illegal alien invaders can easily be or hide terrorists...the country is awash with sleeper agents from every hostile govt in the world...we have no idea how many or where they are...

So why haven't we shut down the borders and stationed troops or mined the borders...if we are truly a nation at war with international and internal terrorists...we aren't certainly aren't acting like it...

This nation is turning into a Camp of the Saints" nightmare...

Of course when the world is one race one culture of one mind under one leader then there will finally be peace...that's the New World Odor's plan anyway...flooding the west with the third world is the one of the last steps on this journey accross the bridge to the future

IMO

Abre Los Ojos

[BushCountry]

Sounds like a fair offer

Actually, it sounds like an amazing offer. Overall, I think the Admin mods do an amazing job (they never pulled one of my posts and I been plenty combative)! To be honest, I don't think he/she should not have to explain themselves. The people complaining have been lowering the discourse and in general need to listen to the other side and present their arguments better (both sides).

I can also see why they need to tread lightly, FreeRepublic does not need a racist label. I just hope they know what they are getting themselves into by responding.