Posted on 01/07/2004 7:22:57 AM PST by Sabertooth
Edited on 01/07/2004 10:46:05 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
You may have observed the recent effort in the forum by the Lead Moderator to scrutinize and regulate the Illegal Alien threads, which started over here.
Ive mixed it up a lot on these threads in the two-plus year Ive been at FR, as I have some strong feelings about the subject of Illegal Aliens. While I like to think Ive generally kept my cool, there have certainly been occasions when I havent.
That said, there have been plenty of occasions where Ive attempted to engage sincere posters who did not share my opinions, only to have them jumped on by angry posters who did. In the past Ive made posts on threads and requests by Freepmail requesting that the more aggressive posters cool their jets to mixed results.
Ive also seen posts suggesting that the borders be mined, which I think is stupid, hyperbolic spleen, or posts referring to the President as Jorge Arbusto, which stopped being funny years ago, and is now just antagonistic. It doesnt matter that Vicente Fox once called him that in a friendly fashion, no one on the fence regarding Illegals is going to be persuaded by ad hominem rhetoric.
On the other hand, Ive also observed a shifting coalition of posters who are less than sincere on the other side of the debate; who are prone to using Democrat talking points to smear posters who are concerned about Illegals as anti-immigrant and closet racists. When reading their posts, one half-wonders if they arent moles for the L.A. Times.
Their perceptions of bigots, bigots everywhere and posts in that vein have also been toxic to the Illegal Alien threads, and such was often the purpose of their baiting. Success was measured in flame wars, bannings, suspensions, and getting threads nuked or moved to the backroom.
Its been my contention, and Ive made the point to the Moderators on a number of occasions, that moving threads to the backroom only rewarded those who dont want Illegals discussed in this forum, and encouraged their trolling behavior.
Ill stipulate again that my own hands havent always been clean in picking fights and thread jumping. Ill also reveal that about a year or so ago I attempted to organize a call, via Freepmail, for some self-restraint on these threads. Toward that end, I contacted eight fairly high-profile posters, not all of whom were regulars on the Illegal threads, and whose opinions varied widely on the issue, with the idea of some sort of joint letter. The response was uniformly positive, but the details proved to be unwieldy, however, and the effort died on the vine.
Since then I would come and go from the Illegal Alien threads, and observe the ebbs and flows of all of the behavior I saw above.
A few months ago, I took a different tack, and got into a running conversation over my concerns with the Lead Moderator, through Freepmail.
Last week an Illegal Alien thread was moved to the Backroom, in another episode of the process I described above. This irked me a little more than usual, given the imminence of President Bushs announcement of a new direction in immigration policy, and I ranted a little more than usual to the Lead Mod.
He was receptive to some of my criticisms, and decided to try the new approach that is now the matter at hand. He posted his account last night (emphasis added)
To: AllI just got a Freepmail. Without posting it or who it was from, the gist of it was as follows:1) That the timing of this effort was suspicious.
2) That this person feels the actions taken have shifted the emphasis of the forum from conservative oriented to party oriented.
I wanted to share with you my response:
I am being evenhanded on the matter. There have been those on one side of the issue have been warned about personal attacks and baiting. There have been those on the other side who have been warned about the same.That is all.There has been one suspension, of someone who decided he was going to repost things which had been pulled. He has no one to blame but himself.
There has been one banning, of a person who said that there was no way he was going to abide by the way things are going to be. Once again, it was his choice and if he changes his mind he can mail Jim and his account will be restored.
The timing, you can have whatever suspicions you want. The fact is that for months, someone who is mostly on your side of the issue tried to get me to do more on these threads, hating how they get pulled when they turn into flame wars and how they get backroomed when they turn into flame wars. He would point to examples of baiting. He would point to personal attacks. Sometimes I would point out the things going the other way. Finally, he convinced me and I decided to give this approach a try.
To be honest, I think it is hilarious that some think I had some idea that some policy was coming out of the White House. It is good to be thought of as that well connected, I guess, but it sadly has no basis in reality.
I am going to post my reply on the thread. I won't quote your mail or your name, although I will paraphrase it.
Regards, LM
262 posted on 01/06/2004 6:03:37 PM PST by Lead Moderator
So, if its not clear already, the Lead Moderators statements in this post are 100% accurate and legitimate. The timing of this effort was a direct result of my conversation with him, and was not the result of some conspiracy by Free Republic higher-ups, or Karl Rove, or Vicente Fox, or whatever current dark speculation is now popular.
Nor is there any overarching effort to censor a wide-ranging debate on Illegals, as far as Ive seen. In the context of the current effort underway on the Illegal Alien threads, I havent received even the slightest hint that there are subjects that are off limits to me in this regard, nor have I been given the impression that there cant be vigorous debate, and Im hardly a party-liner in this.
Now, Im certain that some will find it to be an abomination that I would cooperate with a Moderator, or he with me, but, as a friend of mine likes to say, there you have it.
As for the results, theyve been a bit mixed so far, in my estimation. Not, however, because the Mods havent made an effort to be evenhanded. Ive seen a few folks I warned to keep cool get swift warning when they didnt, and Ive seen some of the usual baiters get cease and desist orders. Ive seen nothing to indicate that the effort to raise the tone of the debate on the Illegal Aliens isnt sincere.
Are the Mods doing things exactly as Id like? Nope, nor do I expect them to do so. Ive got strong opinions and subjectivities here, so the standard of my assessment is the combined words and deeds of the Mods on these threads to correct all offenders. Things look promising thus far.
However, I do think that there are posters of diverse opinions who need to reconsider their ways, and take this effort to heart.
El Azteco in East Lansing is the best in the state!
We catch 'em at the airports, don't you know? Yes sir, let any illegal Mexican or Central American try to buy a board an airplane in the U. S., France, or Britain and we'll get them! (Of course, that would be only if they had wires sticking out and kept striking matches, but that's beside the point.)
As for guarding U.S. borders, that is ridiculous to expect. We can guard the entire Syria-Iraq border half-way around the world, but not here with our Homeland Security and all those snazy new laws.
Of course when the world is one race one culture of one mind under one leader then there will finally be peace...that's the New World Odor's plan anyway...flooding the west with the third world is the one of the last steps on this journey accross the bridge to the future.
Yes, and the New World Odor will pull most Americans down - but for whose benefit? Cui Bono? Who profits? This is a one-way street and the traffic is all against us.
There are ways to argue your point in a civilized manner, sans the personal attacks and flame bait, that was my point.
Many of the authors of the columns that get posted here, read the forum. They enjoy insightful commentary on their work not nasty flaming sarcasm and insults tossed at other posters here.
If you feel you or anyone else, can not make your point or your argument here with out losing self control, maybe there is elsewhere that would be more amenable to having their resources and bandwidth used for such purposes.
In case you think my comments were directed at you or stem from some particular position I hold on immigration I'll be clear: I am opposed to amnesty, I am in favor of securing our borders and I have no interest in subsidizing and propping up people that have broken the law to come here.
Can you provide proof of US citizenship on demand?
Are you willing to do so every 50 miles or so on this nation's roads, or whenever a cop decides that he's had a rotten day and wants to share the wealth?
I think it's called protecting your border. Do you guys live in a border state?
Yes, I do.
What about the rest of what dirtboy and I chronicled?
Berlin-Wall construction? Minefields? Truly massive troop deployments? AC-130s blasting away at anyone crossing the Rio Grande? Yes, people have advocated all this.
OK, I took you at your word and hit the abuse button on this post. Nothing was done.
Are you just guys and gals just busy, or are posts advocating "summarily shooting" illegal aliens acceptable on FR?
You posted that he was of 'no worth.'......those were your words.
Do you then feel that our success in the War on Terror is of 'no worth?' Do you feel that the revitalization and respect for the military are of 'no worth?' Do you feel that the tax cuts and rebounding economy are of 'no worth?' And do you honestly believe that the decency of the man is of 'no worth?'
You make no sense, Rebelbase, when you say that what was once of value is now of 'no worth,' and it is such extreme and drastic anti-Bush statements that diminish any civil discourse on the topics at hand.
Those on the opposite side of the Wall Street Journal. I consider FAIR, Americans for Better Immigration, and NumbersUSA to fall into that category.
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Are we in a state of declared war with Mexico?
It matters not what weapon they carry because they are invading and are not welcome and are in fact an enemy of the Constitution as they intend to do harm.
"Invasion" has a specific meaning in law. Illegally crossing the border is not "invasion" in and of itself.
There can be no "utility" argument used to excuse the fact they are indeed invaders and subject to destruction.
Article VI of the US Constitution and a large number of treaties we have signed disagree with you. Opening fire on unarmed persons merely for crossing the border would make the soldiers who did so instant war criminals.
If you do not understand the concept of a "utility" argument please respond and I will try to help you out.
Please explain, by all means.
A CRIMINAL OFFENSE has been commited.
My sister makes a wonderful pineapple upsidedown cake and is a decent hardworking person as well. But if she BREAKS the LAW then she has to PAY the PRICE!
If your sister is over 20 years old she has broken the law hundreds of times without paying the price (e.g. possibly underage drinking, speeding, turning on a red light, maybe experimenting with drugs, jaywalking, and a thousand other things teenagers do in the process of growing up). There are thousands upon thousands of laws, making it almost impossible to tow the line.
But that is not the point, deporting 11 million immigrants at gunpoint tomorrow will not solve much and would cause more problems than it would solve. Don't forget it is only an accident of birth, that you are here and not in a mass grave in Iraq, or an immigrant yourself.
In 1910, the typical debate in politics was how immigrants from southern europe were going to destroy this country! The immigrant population as a percentage has been greater in the first five decades of the 1900s than now. This is a very old debate. Since the debate is so old, it seems like I should see reasonable solutions to this problem discussed, instead of hyperbole. Provide me with a reasonable, thoughtful solution that would be both politically acceptable and humane and you will have a convert.
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