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The Lord of the Rings: A Catholic View
The Cool-Ohm Zone ^
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| Charles Coulombe
Posted on 01/04/2004 11:33:19 PM PST by B-Chan
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Comment #21 Removed by Moderator
Comment #22 Removed by Moderator
To: TonyRo76
Here all I was doing is pointing out the glaring discrepancies between this hierarchical/feudal understanding of society espoused by medieval Catholic thinkers, and the American principle of equality in human dignity before God, as asserted by our Founders. There really isn't much of a "glaring discrepancy," to my mind. In fact, John Locke's ideas can trace some of their origins back to the writings of St. Thomas More and others. "Hierarchy" is not license for dictatorship, by any means.
A hierarchical view of society is firmly rooted in the pages of the New Testament. (Read 1 Timothy and the end of Hebrews if you don't believe me.) Now, you can argue that the inspired authors "didn't know any better," lacking, as they did, the pure light of Jefferson and the other American Founding Fathers. But do you really want to go there?
The jury is still out on the American experiment, from the POV of this Christian, and I hope all thinking Christians. I see plenty of signs that this Republic is collapsing into despotism, a despotism that will make the Catholic feudal/hierarchical view look absolutely heavenly by comparison. There was a story here a few days ago about how the American military thinks it's "more moral" than the country it defends. A military dictatorship lies down that particular road ... and that may be one of the better options!
The Roman Republic lasted, what, about 400 years? At the rate we're going, we'll be lucky to get to 250.
23
posted on
01/05/2004 9:46:52 AM PST
by
Campion
("A republic, madam -- if you can keep it." -- Ben Franklin)
To: Campion
A hierarchical view of society is firmly rooted in the pages of the New Testament. Not quite so simple. There is nothing INTRINSICALLY GOOD about heirachical structures.
The New Testament sees the church as heirachical by charism (see I Tim and Hebrews) and society as heirarchical yet fallen.
The structure of the church mediates grace (i.e. does good things), while the fallen structure of the world imposes the sword on unjust and just alike (see Romans and James).
One structure is redeemed; the other is not. Yet.
24
posted on
01/05/2004 9:57:55 AM PST
by
Taliesan
To: Taliesan
heirachical = heirarchical
25
posted on
01/05/2004 9:58:47 AM PST
by
Taliesan
Comment #26 Removed by Moderator
To: Campion
A hierarchical view of society is firmly rooted in the pages of the New Testament. (Read 1 Timothy and the end of Hebrews if you don't believe me.) After a quick reading of I Tim and Hebrews I don't see where you are coming from. Both books entreat for prayers for rulers and those in Authority but that doesn't necessarily imply hierarchy to me. (a group with one elected executive who answers only to the group and to God is not hierarchical)
27
posted on
01/05/2004 11:02:45 AM PST
by
John O
(God Save America (Please))
To: B-Chan
After the calamities of the Reformation, English Civil War, Glorious, French, Industrial, and Russian Revolutions, etc If he's referring to the Protestant Reformation then calamity is the wrong word to use.
28
posted on
01/05/2004 11:04:26 AM PST
by
John O
(God Save America (Please))
To: TonyRo76
I understand the tragic worldview and everything, but at the same time, P.J. points out that the most useful thing you can do about tragedy is make really bad jokes! There just aren't enough redneck wisecracks in LOTR ... maybe it's because the English don't have rednecks?
29
posted on
01/05/2004 12:32:57 PM PST
by
Tax-chick
(I reserve the right to disclaim all January 2004 posts after the BABY is born!)
To: TonyRo76
I saw this story too and basically, I'd have to agree. You misunderstand. I didn't say they were wrong. I said it's a bad sign that they think so ... and, I might add, to the extent they're right, it's an even worse sign.
30
posted on
01/05/2004 12:36:29 PM PST
by
Campion
("A republic, madam -- if you can keep it." -- Ben Franklin)
To: All
31
posted on
01/05/2004 12:39:26 PM PST
by
B-Chan
(Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
To: John O
Both books entreat for prayers for rulers and those in Authority but that doesn't necessarily imply hierarchy to me. (a group with one elected executive who answers only to the group and to God is not hierarchical) "Hierarchy," as a term, is probably a bit of a red herring. The concept that there are "rulers and those in authority" is obviously not pure egalitarianism, however. And the rulers for whom Paul asked prayers were not elected, at least not by popular franchise.
32
posted on
01/05/2004 12:39:43 PM PST
by
Campion
("A republic, madam -- if you can keep it." -- Ben Franklin)
To: John O; B-Chan
calamity is the wrong word Quite so ... It's not nearly strong enough. 'Disaster' comes closer ... perhaps 'catastrophe' would be better, or maybe 'fiasco'. As usually understood in 21st Century English, 'tragedy' is certainly not strong enough.
To: ArrogantBustard
The so-called reformation was the first symptom of the worsening spiritual schizophrenia of the West the beginning of a disassociative sickness that spread throughout the mind of Western man, reaching full infection with the advent of the humanist "enlightenment" and the revolutions of 1793 and 1848 and ending with the suicide of our civilization, 1914-1917.
The West died of spiritual syphilis. With the shattering of global Christian civilization at the end of the Great War, the West as created by Christendom ceased to exist. We have been isolated cells living in its corpse since that day. Will a new earthly King arise, and with his King's Touch enable a New West to sprout from the scrofulic ruins of the old, or will Christendom lie dormant until its sovereign Lord comes again from Heaven? Time will tell.
May the King soon return!
34
posted on
01/05/2004 12:55:12 PM PST
by
B-Chan
(Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
To: Campion
The concept that there are "rulers and those in authority" is obviously not pure egalitarianism, however. And the rulers for whom Paul asked prayers were not elected, at least not by popular franchise. There are rulers put in place by God's hand. How He chooses to move His hand (whether through inherited kingship or through election) is up to Him.
35
posted on
01/05/2004 1:07:06 PM PST
by
John O
(God Save America (Please))
To: B-Chan; ArrogantBustard
will Christendom lie dormant until its sovereign Lord comes again from Heaven? What makes you think that Christianity is dormant? Millions are getting saved yearly and Christianity is still the fastest growing belief system.
Even with that though I agree with your last line. Even now Lord come.
36
posted on
01/05/2004 1:09:28 PM PST
by
John O
(God Save America (Please))
To: B-Chan
The so-called reformation was the first symptom of the worsening spiritual schizophrenia of the West Actually the abuses by the Roman Catholic church (indulgences etc) were the first symptoms. The reformation was intended to bring the church back to biblical truth.
37
posted on
01/05/2004 1:11:06 PM PST
by
John O
(God Save America (Please))
To: John O
There are rulers put in place by God's hand. How He chooses to move His hand (whether through inherited kingship or through election) is up to Him. Pretty much what I was trying to say.
38
posted on
01/05/2004 1:12:23 PM PST
by
Campion
("A republic, madam -- if you can keep it." -- Ben Franklin)
To: John O
Actually the abuses by the Roman Catholic church (indulgences etc) were the first symptoms. No, actually, the first symptoms were the increasingly aggressive moves by the state against the Church. (cf St. Thomas Becket, King Philip the Fair of France, etc.) The Reformation was the ultimate triumph of the state, using a thin veneer of Christianity to pretend to "bring the church back to biblical truth," to cover up a naked grab for power -- temporal and spiritual -- and wealth.
39
posted on
01/05/2004 1:15:10 PM PST
by
Campion
("A republic, madam -- if you can keep it." -- Ben Franklin)
To: John O
What makes you think that Christianity is dormant? I never said that Christianity is dormant. Please re-read my post.
...[T]he abuses by the Roman Catholic church (indulgences etc) were the first symptoms.
Abuses as defined by whom?
The reformation was intended to bring the church back to biblical truth.
Biblical truth as defined by whom? Who is it that has the infallible gift of knowing what is biblical truth and what is not? Martin Luther? John Calvin? Henry VIII? Your pastor? You?
If the reformation was intended to bring the church back to biblical truth, the people who began it (and who continue it) did a piss-poor job. Pray, which of the two zillion Protestant denominations that have spring from this "reformation" currently teaches the biblical truth?
40
posted on
01/05/2004 1:24:12 PM PST
by
B-Chan
(Catholic. Monarchist. Texan. Any questions?)
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