Posted on 01/04/2004 7:55:31 PM PST by Lead Moderator
Edited on 01/04/2004 8:43:28 PM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
Hello everyone.
I've been talking to some long time Freepers via email for several weeks (one in particular). His concern was over the immigration threads and how they turn out on Free Republic.
Many times these threads turn into flame wars. There appears to be a lot of pent up hostility that various factions have developed for each other which ends up coming out, over and over, and the result is that the threads turn into a lot of crap. The moderators get hit with dozens of abuse reports over personal attacks and other silliness. Eventually, it becomes more work than is really worthwhile, and the threads get moved to the backroom so we don't have to deal with it.
This is an OK status quo when it occurs just occasionally. But when it happens frequently, it is not OK. That means that there is a problem.
So we are going to try to fix the problem.
There are sincere people on both sides of the debate who have gotten too into the battle that they are no longer being constructive. The goal will be to help them get back on track.
But we have two groups of people who are completely not sincere.
One group is those who really have no other goal other than to try to fracture conservatives and turn them on each other. One group is those who think that those most concerned with immigration are really just bigots and want to shout them down.
The good news is that both of these groups are very, very small. The bad news is that lots of people are firmly convinced that many of those who are just riled up sincere Freepers are actually part of one of these small groups. In other words, a lot of suspicion of motives has come about.
We're going to have to overcome that.
One of us tried something with a topic which had developed a similar problem, the Creation/Evolution threads. We'll give that type of approach a try for the immigration threads.
So here is what is going to happen. Starting tomorrow, when I see an immigration related thread go up, I am going to post immediately a warning that this would be a very bad thread to engage in insulting or flame baiting. When I see someone ignoring the warning, I'll address them personally telling them to knock it off.
What we need those who are serious about the issue to do is to act responsibly during this time. Engage in debate, without the insults. Post arguments, not ad hominems. Post facts, not innuendos. If you don't like someone, figure out a way to not have it get in the way of your postings. If you want to be disagreeable, do so without being needlessly disrespectful and instigative.
What will happen is, over time with this approach, those who are just trying to stir up crap, and those who are unable to help themselves, will stick out like sore thumbs and will get the axe.
And once that happens, then more direct involvement will not be needed, which I think everyone will agree is the preferred way.
So ping those who you know are interested in debating the topic to this thread, so they can see what is coming.
Thanks
It depends on how you view the problem. Either way, simply sticking the troops on the border is the worst idea.
If it's a problem of enforcing America's laws regarding entry into the United States, then the military, quite simply, has no role in the affair.
If you view this as a hostile regime invading America, then a purely defensive form of war is unnecessary. (The Cold War was necessary only because the USSR had The Bomb. So far as we know, Mexico does not.) The shortest and least expensive solution--in time, treasure, and lives--would be to invade Mexico and perform "regime change."
Well, a couple of things here . .
Firstly, the Kelly AFB base commander jumping on the situation and correctly having the illegals deported was exactly what he should have done.
I'm sure that within minutes of when he saw the vanload of illegals heading down the road he said to himself, "Give it a week - they'll be right back here again."
As for using our military, only our National Guard forces were ever intended to be used to defend our borders and repel a foreign invasion upon our soil.
The problem is, we are being invaded by a foreign influence, but not militarily. It is a political and economic invasion. Politics and econmics are of course driving forces which have equally been the driving forces which have led to hundreds of wars as long as the historical record will reflect back into the progression of civilization.
Since we are not being invaded militarily and only politically and econmically, there has yet to be a strong enough uprising within the United States citizenry to forcefully compel our elected government to bring an end to this historic onslaught.
We all know the problem, there is just nobody acting on our behalf within our elected government to do anything about it.
I've said all along that the reason this condition exists revolves around one thing - MONEY.
Well, money and greed I should say.
And for that reason I submit to all here on FR that the root of the entire illegal immigration problem is not the problem of Mexico or a single one of the illegal Mexicans entering this country illegally to find work and improve their standard of living.
Unless and until our government begins to act on the behalf of our national sovergnty by punishing corporations and businesses hiring the illegal immigrants, the problem will only continue to fester into a deeper and deeper national crisis.
We are not being invaded by a foreign power, we - THE CITIZENRY - are allowing this political and economic invasion by our own government to relinquish it's sovergnty by it's own inaction to protect it's borders.
Soltions abound for these problems, yet our governement officials continue to elevate their own political and financial fortunes over the will of the people.
If the government took just half of Sabertooth's 18 solutions to the immigration invasion, we would see drastic relief within the first thirty days of doing so.
Is there anybody here who can influence the state department or the adminstration to listen long and hard enough they will be compelled into corrective action?
In an executive order, we will very shortly see blanket amnesty for millions of illegal immigrants living in this country.
Depending on whose best interests are at the heart of this executive order (native born or illigal immigrants), this order has an historical opportunity to either greatly heal or greatly harm our national unity.
I pray President Bush recieves the wisdom and council he needs to make the decision based on the good for the majority of Americans.
Well, now, their opinion of language, holidays, and culture may be as you say. It doesn't change their opinion of the people, though. I suggest you come spend a day or two with my daughter-in-law and her family for a real eye-opener. Her dad is of Spanish descent; his family settled in Holbrook, AZ. Her mom is of Mexican descent, her family was 'trapped' on the US side of the border in Bisbee, AZ when that border was closed at the turn of the 20th Century.
Her grandfather took part in the Bataan Death March, escaped and lived to take part in guerilla actions against the Japanese in the Phillipines during the latter years of the war.
Theirs is a very American family and their utter disgust at the effect of illegal immigration and the mean nature of illegal immigrants in Arizona is palpably opposed to your observation.
The keyword in use by the pingers (gubamyster, madfly, and myself primarily) is Aliens, and I post a button routinely that activates that keyword search.
I realize 'Aliens' is misleading, since the problem we are discussing is actually illegal aliens... but it's shorter and I'm hoping that thinking FReepers realize the difference.
Soltions abound for these problems, yet our governement officials continue to elevate their own political and financial fortunes over the will of the people.
Of course the solutions are many.
The problem is we are no longer being represented. The political elite in DC are completely out of control on this and could care less.
Your right, it's all about money and the greedy business owners that love the cheap, uneducated, millions that will work for peanuts, and not complain.....
A very sad state of affairs.
There's a bad moon on the risen.....
As is most often the case, the answer is a definite "Yes and no."
Ranch Rescue has come in as an outside organization with a devil-may-care attitude to their opposition. That sets them up as confrontational and reduces their effectiveness. They are, however, working with the local Sherrif and have had some benefit in the area.
American Border Patrol is Glen Spencer's outfit here in Arizona. They are a small core of outsiders who have enlisted the assistance of locals to spot and report illegal crossings using high tech gear. ABP has been very effective in their efforts. If you followed any of Jackelope Breeder's comments, you'll remember seeing a claim that he has been responsible for spotting (and having the BCBP apprehend) several thousand illegals last year. I would suggest he is being modest.
OBTW, the Bureau of Customs/Border Patrol (BCBP) officially apprehended (in the Tucson sector) over 15,000 illegals in the month of December. Their conservative estimate is that 4 out of 5 get away. Crunch them numbers...
"The problem is we are no longer being represented. The political elite in DC are completely out of control on this and could care less.
Your right, it's all about money and the greedy business owners that love the cheap, uneducated, millions that will work for peanuts, and not complain.....
A very sad state of affairs."
LOL. I know what you mean. I skip them like the plague. You can go through two pages of them before the combatants even take a breath. Passion is a requirement of a "true" conservative . . . but vehemence helps no one and makes us all look like the KKK.
There remains but one . .
An argument is a connected series of statements intended to establish a proposition.
Argument is an intellectual process. Contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of any statement the other person makes.
LOL! Glad to see you took the opening I left for you.
Have a happy!
In light of the coming election, I'm confident both of the beltway parties would tend to agree with your statement.
Lets just sweep it under that living room rug....
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