[Sir Francis Dashwood]

You're probably a defensive Catholic who doesn't like Hobbes. I don't say I agree with his materialist or egoist opinions, but they are quite instructive about human nature and the Bible (Ayn Rand gets much of her philosophy directly from Hobbes).

I'm not interested in a pissing contest over Hobbes. I just know liberals and a lot of people hated him just for what he wrote...

[thoughtomator]

Nope, sorry, not a Catholic. Not even Christian. And I really have no problem whatsoever with Hobbes; in fact, he has been a major influence on my political philosophy.

I am having a lot of trouble believing you have read Leviathan. Perhaps I am the first person you have ever encountered who has read the entire thing? Give me some reference, any, that demonstrates that you have read even a few chapters of that work. You don't even recognize his description of the state of humanity unaltered by government ("nasty, brutish, and short" - the Hobbesian world to which I referred earlier), which occurs quite early in the tome. I see no recognition of even the basic definition he set forth for the term "moral". On what basis would anyone believe you have read the book?

If you can substantiate what you have said, I will be happy to debate the merits thereof. If you cannot substantiate what you have said, then you owe me an apology.