End of French-Dominated Europe in Sight?

Forbes ^ | December 24, 2003 | Paul Johnson

[Prodigal Son]

We are talking about perceptions, opinions.

Michael, these aren't perceptions, they're the truth. When did the Berlin Wall fall? Think about it. Now when did George Bush Sr take office? The Fall of the Wall was the culmination of a long series of events that began before Bush had ever taken office.

Reagan was the architect of the policy that led to the Soviet Union's collapse. Reagan was in power before Gorbachev ever came along. Before Kohl ever came along. When Gorbachev attained power in the Soviet Union, the Soviet economy was already too far gone for him to do anything about it.

Think about it. When Gorby came to power, Reagan's policies had already been at work for over 4 years. Reagan's policies broke the Soviet Bank. Leading to the series of changes in the Eastern European nations. The Soviets were by that time too weak to do anything about it. No, I would never take credit away from Bush Sr, Kohl etc but it is just willfull ignorance to claim that Reagan wasn't the major player in all that. It was after all Reagan's Star Wars program that scared the Soviets. It was Reagan that told Gorby 'No' in Reykavik. It was Reagan's arms build up that forced the Soviets to try to keep up- even though they could not (which is eventually what broke them). Germany had no great military to build up in an arms race. The German military was never much of a threat to the Soviets. Even the American military that we had stationed in Germany during the Cold War was considered only a 'speed bump' for the Soviet Army. Our job was to slow them down long enough for us to start flying in reinforcements to Rhein-Main airport. Those guys manning the Fulda Gap were only supposed to last a matter of hours (if that).

It was our military that posed the threat to the Soviets not yours- with all due respect to yours of course.

Reagan was a giant even among great men. A candidate for the best American president of all time. Certainly the greatest modern president. Kennedy couldn't carry Ronnie's jockstrap.

[Michael81Dus]

Excuse me, but it were YOUR nukes and nothing else that kept the deterrence. Our military counted half a million soldiers - not bad at all for a country with 60 millions citizens then. Our military spendings per citizen were very similar to yours.

Re:The Berlin wall fall.
It could have went completely different. I don´t know wether you know it or not, but the fall of the wall was by chance and actually accidental. The GDR-leadership didn´t want it, the Soviet central council didn´t want it, the border troops of the GDR didn´t want it. It was a mistake of a member of the central council so that thousands of people peacefully made the troops to open the border control points, and then, within hours, people stood on the wall. If it were not for the three great men in these days, the wall still could stand there, the GDR leaders were already prepared to use the military against its own people. Because of the trust between the three (Kohl, Gorbatchov and Bush), Gorbatchov didn´t allow military actions.

[americanbychoice]

Michael, are you rewriting history again?
Start reading and learn. Hypothesis is nice but only for the future, History has to be taken as is, without spin.
Germany has never spent as much on their military as America. (Except during WWII.

[Prodigal Son]

Excuse me, but it were YOUR nukes and nothing else that kept the deterrence.

LOL, our nukes are part of our military Michael. That's the whole point. That's a point that seems to be lost on other nations. Developing your military doesn't just mean consripting soldiers and buying bullets. Our nuclear arsenal is just as much an integral part of our military as are our tanks and our aircraft carriers. If Germany didn't build up a nuclear arsenal, you can't really say that you had a military budget that was similar to ours.

I don´t know wether you know it or not, but the fall of the wall was by chance and actually accidental

An accident? I don't know what's gone on in your life the past few weeks Michael, but you've definitely changed somehow. I don't think this is a typical German attitude you're displaying at all here. My wife certainly doesn't see it the same as you. The fall of the Berlin Wall was no accident. It was the culmination of years of purpose, of years of spending and sacrifice. It was the inevitable conclusion to the policy, will and intention of the German and American people. For you to call it an accident is mystifing to me but it is also an insult to all the people- German and American who made it happen.

Because of the trust between the three (Kohl, Gorbatchov and Bush),

Michael, you're just being stupid here. Bush had been in office a matter of months when the wall fell. Certainly he gets a nice slice of credit but to claim that he had a great significance on the events leading up to that moment and Reagan did not is just... I would expect more from the looniest democrat, to be honest. Even the Soviets acknowledge Reagan's influence.

Gorbachev was NOT a great man. He was a just another piece of sh!t communist dictator like all the rest who tried to keep his little house of cards together even though it was obvious it would fall. When history was staring him straight in the face, he had a chance to grab it by the balls and do something with it- instead he blinked and history passed him by. Now, he's a lecturer on the Al Gore 'useless ex-somebodys' circuit. You can say what you want about Boris Yeltsin, but when history presented itself to him- he grabbed it and did something brave with it. Gorbachev- lol. Just another loser in my opinion. Think about it- Mr Reagan said 'Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!' A great man doesn't keep his people behind a wall. Those are the actions of a tyrant. Gorbachev 'allowed' the wall to fall because he had no choice- Reagan had broken his back.

And where is Reagan in your calculations? What do you have against Reagan? He gets no credit at all? This is silly and willfull ignorance on your part and you are actually the first person I ever met to think this. It seems to me that you dislike Reagan- it's the only thing that explains it.

I tell you what, it is useless to discuss this with you, I believe. You are in effect claiming something that would equal your saying 'the sky is not blue' or 'the world is not round' if you think Reagan wasn't the major player in the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European communist states. I don't know what's wrong with you but I wouldn't debate someone about the sky being blue and I consider this, likewise, to be beneath my serious attention. It is a fact. If you don't like it- this is your problem and I don't want to be involved in your problem in this respect. Read up on the subject. It sounds almost as if you are getting your info from leftists who would like to wipe Reagan's achievements out of the history books. But I lived during those times. I was in my mid-twenties when the wall came down. I remember it vividly as I do the events leading up to it as I do the drastic contrast between Reagan and Carter.

You are correct in one line of thinking- if men like Carter had been in power all through the 80s and 90s, yes, it would've been an accident if the Wall had fallen. But it was no chance thing that it happened after Reagan.

[americanbychoice]

Michael recently moved from Duesseldorf to Hamburg. He calls himself a Hamburger now. maybe that has something to do with his views :-) (Just being sarcastic)

[Michael81Dus]

I think you´ve perfectly (intentionally?) misunderstood me.

First of all: I have nothing against Reagan. I believe he was absolutely right with his deterrence policy, and Pershing II were a good idea. Then, he visited Bitburg and paid respect to fallen German soldiers of WWII, even those young men who died in the uniform of the Waffen-SS. That was a very nice gesture. There´s nothing wrong with Reagan, and I´m sad that his physical condition today is so bad. I don´t know much more about him.

Maybe you know, maybe you don´t know it: Adenauer wanted Germanys Bundeswehr to build up nukes on our own, but Washington has asked him not to do so, because they didn´t want to escalate the situation with Moscow and they didn´t want the French and other to get nervous. The German parliament has already entitled the government to build nukes when Adenauer stopped his plans. Under the SPD/FDP government we joined the nuclear-weapons-ban-treaty.

Surely the Berlin wall fell accidently. East German officials mistakenly announced that East Germans could travel freely to West Berlin, and within hours so many East Germans stood at the border crosspoints that the leaders had to give up - or to use violence. Gorbatchov told Krentz that he was not entitled to use military power. The situation were critical and not a planned scenario. It went good, but only by chance.

I´m not taking credit away from Reagan. It´s just that he isn´t one of the most important characters of the cold wars end. My personal ranking is:

1. Gorbatchov
If it were not for him and his believe in peace there´d been a bloody end of the peoples demand for freedom.
He was one man - in a body full of communist warmongerers. There have been many who wanted the military to break the peoples minds. It was Gorbatchov who made reunification and the fall of the Soviet Union possible, even if he didn´t want it. His reforms were signs for the people to stand up, and they stood up.

2. Bush
He made clear that Gorbatchov has nothing to fear from the west, he fully backed Gorbatchov.

3. Kohl
It was Kohl who persuaded Bush, Gorbatchov and more important, with the help of Bush Thatcher and Mitterand, that a united Germany would be no threat to others but the best for the Germans. Even Poland wasn´t really anxious.

4. Reagan
He continued the policy of deterrence, and didn´t allow the Reds to take the lead in the armament race. He didn´t stopped building nukes when the peace movement blocked the roads to military facilities. He didn´t back down. That was his achievement. But he had no influence on the peaceful end of the Cold war. If he had been in power in 1990, the he surely would stand on Bushs position, but he wasn´t.

The Soviet Empire didn´t fall because of foreign influence, it fell because of its own failure. That´s why no foreigner can stand on #1 of my list.

I hope you now understand me, however, you are free to disagree. This is my personal perception, and this is not what we can discuss about, like I said before.

Best wishes,

Michael

[americanbychoice]

your point #4
That is silly. Do you really believe that the cold war ended in a matter of weeks? A hell of a lot of work and years of Reagan pushing the issues preceded that.
Bush just had the job of "Clean-up".

[Michael81Dus]

Why so harsh? Reagan had no talks about what will happen if the USSR breaks. Reagan, the Polish Solidarnosc, etc did the preparations, but the decisive time (when it was critical wether the Empire breaks or uses violance) was from autumn 1989 until Dec 1991.

[americanbychoice]

How many times did Reagan meet with Gorby? What was discussed?

[Michael81Dus]

Oh F***! Now that I read it again (to make sure that I´ve expressed my views correct), I realize that I´ve made so many mistakes (belief, was, has, others, ...). Sorry.

[Michael81Dus]

Several times, but they surely have not discussed the end of the USSR. Issues to talk about were the security of both blocks and regional conflicts.

[americanbychoice]

Where do you get that inside information?

[Cap Huff]

Bookmark

[Michael81Dus]

From the Central Council of the Communist Party of the Union of the Socialist Soviet Republics. I am a senior KGB-officer... and if you believe that the USSR doesn´t exist anymore... har har har, then you are WRONG! har har har

LOL - reminds me of the Simpsons episode when Homer becomes Navy submarine commander - and enters Russian errr Soviet waters.

Serious, I´ve read the book of Helmut Kohl "I want Germanys unity", and he wrote that the fall of the USSR wasn´t a topic in talks with Gorbatchov until mid of 1990, because Michail didn´t want to imagine that (-> Lithuania). Michail would have never talked about it with the worst rival of the USSR years before the open revolutions.

[americanbychoice]

Respond to my post # 60.
A fitting analogy

[Michael81Dus]

So, you claim that Reagan and Gorbatchov discussed the fall of the USSR? How do you come to that conclusion?

[americanbychoice]

How long was Reagan President?
How long was Gorbi in charge?
When did the Soviet Union crumble?
How long was Bush President?
To believe your Hypothesis, The Soviet Union would have crumbled in a matter of months, without anything having been done beforehand to facilitate this defeat.
Think about it? Connect the dots and the timelines?

[Prodigal Son]

Surely the Berlin wall fell accidently.

No sane person would say something like that. Historical events do not just fall out of the sky. To disconnect the event from the causes leading up to it is- it's mad, is what it is.

You are looking at the event from an extremely narrow perspective. The event itself lasted decades. It was not a thing that just suddenly happened one day. It took years and years of effort to bring that Wall down. There is no way in Hell that it just fell down one day.

This is delusional on your part. No, of course, we didn't know the exact day it was going to come down, but to bring down the Wall was a planned event.

Ronald Reagan... It´s just that he isn´t one of the most important characters of the cold wars end.

Michael- I won't discuss whether the world is flat or round. For you to say something like this draws your intelligence and sanity into question. End of discussion. You don't have any clue what you're talking about if you're going to say something like that. I mean this earnestly- if you say something like that, you are just as nuts as those other posters who are claiming that Germany is currently run by National Socialists. It's insane. It's like saying the atomic bombs weren't directly related to the Japanese surrender or that our Island Hopping campaign didn't lead up to that event. It's just that simple. I am absolutely certain that if you were to sit down and talk to the former President Bush, he would explain to you just how important Reagan was.

[nkycincinnatikid]

General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!
And Micheal Gorbachev heard and he understood. For Micheal Gorbachev was also a great man.

[Michael81Dus]

You both and I, we disagree on one important point:
I believe that the fall of the Communist Empire could not been planned, I think it was lots of luck that made it possible. I´m covinced that it could have came not that way, that the Reds had used their weapons against their people!

You both believe that it was a matter-of-course that the wall fell down and with it the whole system of oppression and common property.

If you were right, it´s clear that Reagan is the man responsible for it all. If I were right, the trio would gain most of the credit for this achievement.

I agree, M., it makes no sense to talk about it anymore. For me, the disagreement is clear and I have no questions left.

Though it would have been nice not to be called "insane", etc... I wish you a great start in the week,

Michael