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To: Prodigal Son
Excuse me, but it were YOUR nukes and nothing else that kept the deterrence. Our military counted half a million soldiers - not bad at all for a country with 60 millions citizens then. Our military spendings per citizen were very similar to yours.

Re:The Berlin wall fall.
It could have went completely different. I don´t know wether you know it or not, but the fall of the wall was by chance and actually accidental. The GDR-leadership didn´t want it, the Soviet central council didn´t want it, the border troops of the GDR didn´t want it. It was a mistake of a member of the central council so that thousands of people peacefully made the troops to open the border control points, and then, within hours, people stood on the wall. If it were not for the three great men in these days, the wall still could stand there, the GDR leaders were already prepared to use the military against its own people. Because of the trust between the three (Kohl, Gorbatchov and Bush), Gorbatchov didn´t allow military actions.
62 posted on 12/28/2003 1:50:41 AM PST by Michael81Dus
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To: Michael81Dus
Michael, are you rewriting history again?
Start reading and learn. Hypothesis is nice but only for the future, History has to be taken as is, without spin.
Germany has never spent as much on their military as America. (Except during WWII.
63 posted on 12/28/2003 7:20:28 AM PST by americanbychoice
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To: Michael81Dus
Excuse me, but it were YOUR nukes and nothing else that kept the deterrence.

LOL, our nukes are part of our military Michael. That's the whole point. That's a point that seems to be lost on other nations. Developing your military doesn't just mean consripting soldiers and buying bullets. Our nuclear arsenal is just as much an integral part of our military as are our tanks and our aircraft carriers. If Germany didn't build up a nuclear arsenal, you can't really say that you had a military budget that was similar to ours.

I don´t know wether you know it or not, but the fall of the wall was by chance and actually accidental

An accident? I don't know what's gone on in your life the past few weeks Michael, but you've definitely changed somehow. I don't think this is a typical German attitude you're displaying at all here. My wife certainly doesn't see it the same as you. The fall of the Berlin Wall was no accident. It was the culmination of years of purpose, of years of spending and sacrifice. It was the inevitable conclusion to the policy, will and intention of the German and American people. For you to call it an accident is mystifing to me but it is also an insult to all the people- German and American who made it happen.

Because of the trust between the three (Kohl, Gorbatchov and Bush),

Michael, you're just being stupid here. Bush had been in office a matter of months when the wall fell. Certainly he gets a nice slice of credit but to claim that he had a great significance on the events leading up to that moment and Reagan did not is just... I would expect more from the looniest democrat, to be honest. Even the Soviets acknowledge Reagan's influence.

Gorbachev was NOT a great man. He was a just another piece of sh!t communist dictator like all the rest who tried to keep his little house of cards together even though it was obvious it would fall. When history was staring him straight in the face, he had a chance to grab it by the balls and do something with it- instead he blinked and history passed him by. Now, he's a lecturer on the Al Gore 'useless ex-somebodys' circuit. You can say what you want about Boris Yeltsin, but when history presented itself to him- he grabbed it and did something brave with it. Gorbachev- lol. Just another loser in my opinion. Think about it- Mr Reagan said 'Mr Gorbachev, tear down this wall!' A great man doesn't keep his people behind a wall. Those are the actions of a tyrant. Gorbachev 'allowed' the wall to fall because he had no choice- Reagan had broken his back.

And where is Reagan in your calculations? What do you have against Reagan? He gets no credit at all? This is silly and willfull ignorance on your part and you are actually the first person I ever met to think this. It seems to me that you dislike Reagan- it's the only thing that explains it.

I tell you what, it is useless to discuss this with you, I believe. You are in effect claiming something that would equal your saying 'the sky is not blue' or 'the world is not round' if you think Reagan wasn't the major player in the collapse of the Soviet Union and the Eastern European communist states. I don't know what's wrong with you but I wouldn't debate someone about the sky being blue and I consider this, likewise, to be beneath my serious attention. It is a fact. If you don't like it- this is your problem and I don't want to be involved in your problem in this respect. Read up on the subject. It sounds almost as if you are getting your info from leftists who would like to wipe Reagan's achievements out of the history books. But I lived during those times. I was in my mid-twenties when the wall came down. I remember it vividly as I do the events leading up to it as I do the drastic contrast between Reagan and Carter.

You are correct in one line of thinking- if men like Carter had been in power all through the 80s and 90s, yes, it would've been an accident if the Wall had fallen. But it was no chance thing that it happened after Reagan.

64 posted on 12/28/2003 10:26:34 AM PST by Prodigal Son
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To: Michael81Dus
General Secretary Gorbachev, if you seek peace, if you seek prosperity for the Soviet Union and Eastern Europe, if you seek liberalization: Come here to this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, open this gate! Mr. Gorbachev, tear down this wall!
And Micheal Gorbachev heard and he understood. For Micheal Gorbachev was also a great man.
79 posted on 12/28/2003 5:36:59 PM PST by nkycincinnatikid
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