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My son was sent this article by a young woman and she asked for his thoughts which I have put below. Any thoughts from freepers.

Son's response A certain kind of music would soften the souls of young men.

Young males, of course, have always been rough around the edges. But in the past, their edges were smoothed, in part, by being introduced into female company. Boys learned to behave properly first from their mothers and later around other women and girls. They held open doors, pulled out chairs, stood up when a woman entered a room, stood up in public places to offer their seats, took off their hats in the presence of women, and carefully guarded their language so as not to offend the fair sex. All that is gone. In no other aspect of their conduct is barbarism more apparent among a large number of young men these days than in their treatment of women.

It used to be that women were relied upon to be a civilizing force around men. No longer, thanks to feminist movement women can be just as crass as men, and then women bemoan the fact they get treated "just like the guys." It resides wholly with women to choose who the next generation of fathers will be (and by extension what the next generation of men will be like) as no one forces them into marriage, at least not in our culture, and they still have the final word on accepting or rejecting a proposal. Thus if they want men to be upright, responsible and brave they should marry someone upright responsible and brave. Basic breeding principles alone would dictate that in a couple of generations the brigands would be bred out, but the very problem is that women don't marry men who are "upright, responsible and brave".

Rather, ever the fans of projects, many women marry with the goal of changing men. A foolish thought, for which the Arapaho have a parable regarding a snake and a fox (You knew I was a snake when you carried me on your back. Why are you surprised then when I behaved like a snake and bit you?) Who do we have to blame for this? One of the very people Moore holds up, namely Jane Austin and all the other foolish "Romantics" of their time, like the Bronte sisters, who encouraged women through stories of changing deeply flawed men and thereby proving ..what I am not sure. That sometimes you get lucky in the roll of the dice? That maybe so, but I would never want to make my living on my earnings from Roulette.

Wimps make worthless watchdogs. But their failure as watchdogs or guardians has nothing to do with size or physique. My father used to tell me when I was growing up, "It is not the size of the dog in the fight, but the size of the fight in the dog" that matters. Many of today's young men seem to have no fight in them at all. Not for them to rescue damsels in distress from the barbarians. Furthermore, wimps vote. As Aristotle pointed out, to the cowardly, bravery will seem more like rashness and foolhardiness than what it really is. Hence political and social issues that require bravery for their solution elicit only hand-wringing and half-measures from the wimps. Wimps are always looking for the easy way out.

This requires and obligatory potshot at the French for they, more than any other, charge Americans with being "cowboys" when in truth they are the hand-wringing cowards. And yet, our American women pine for the French (or Euro) male despite the abysmal track record that many have in the bravery department (excepting the British). Can you say "cognitive dissonance?" Truth is both sexes could do with a healthy shot of rationality as it isn't just men that are led by passions. In fact, dare I say it, I would think of the two in American society, men, far more than women, can at least muster something of a rational explanation for what we do or what we think. For far too long "feelings and intuitions" have sufficed as an answer from women.

By way of illustration, I was on a recent ski trip and in the car ride up to the slopes the talk inevitably turned to politics and war (inevitable for me). One of the partners in the conversation was a female and she said that she thought the war was "wrong" but she couldn't muster a reasonable rationale for why, she just said in her heart she knew it was wrong. But the surprising thing is she acted like that settled the matter. To be sure this isn't true of all women, just as it isn't true that all men are led by their passions (even on the issue of the war itself I have known many women to marshal a coherent argument for and against it) but it does typify what has been allowed to pass in society as an answer. Men are condemned when we put such thinking to the test, we are told that we aren't being very "sensitive" or "cooperative." And who do we have to thank for this jargon that passes for an argument? Moore hit it on the head, the most recent iteration of the feminist movement and all the other post-modern critiques that deal in "dialogue" rather than "competition"(unless your ideas be of Judeo-Christian or Anglo-American origin in which case they are de facto wrong or oppressive).

So on the whole I agree with Moore's assessment I just disagree where the culpability resides. Only manly fathers teach the next generation of men to be manly and you only get manly fathers if women marry manly men. As it turns out basic breeding principles may prove the death knell of the manly man, as far more nebulous criteria like "personality" or "he makes me laugh" seem to weigh more for women than he is "upright, responsible and brave"

1 posted on 12/18/2003 1:59:32 PM PST by waRNmother.armyboots
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bump for later
2 posted on 12/18/2003 2:07:26 PM PST by Lyford
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
I agree wholeheartedly. I was blessed enough to marry a MANLY man. My sons--two from a previous marriage and one from this one--all try very hard to emulate the manliness and heroic behavior of their dad. It's a beautiful thing.
4 posted on 12/18/2003 2:23:34 PM PST by redhead (Les Français sont des singes de capitulation qui mangent du fromage.)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
An excellent article, and your son's responses are very intelligent. Obviously he's been well brought up :-). I think he's particularly perceptive in observing that women have to take responsibility for the kind of men they marry. If they asked themselves, "What kind of father will this man be?" then I think they'd have a very different perspective from the usual!

Unfortunately, most young women don't seem to think of themselves as potential mothers, nor of men as potential fathers. And even when they "somehow" wind up as parents, many don't understand that this requires them to ... grow up! The problem is that neither gender wants to be what they were intended to be. Both seem to want to be lifelong children, because being either a woman or a man worthy of the title is hard work, and many have been raised to avoid hard work, especially if it doesn't provide immediate gratification.

Again, congratulations on your son - he's got a very good mind!
5 posted on 12/18/2003 2:28:34 PM PST by Tax-chick (Nobody's indoctrinating MY children ... except me!)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
I responded to my son's email above and said that if women want to know why there are few manly men left then they have no further to look than at the generation of women who were the mothers to those men and also to look at themselves. If they want there to be manly men then the solution is no further than their looking in the mirror. Women have a lot more power than they are willing to admit. In general, in the last generation (70s, 80s, 90s) we have not used it to the betterment of our families and world. Instead women have been a destructive force or a silent one. We bought Satan's lie of "I" or if it is easier to think of it as "me". Same lie that caused problems in the Garden of Eden. Anytime we try to place ourselves on the throne instead of God.
6 posted on 12/18/2003 2:32:48 PM PST by waRNmother.armyboots
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
later
7 posted on 12/18/2003 2:41:58 PM PST by Desdemona (Kempis' Imitation of Christ on-line! http://www.leaderu.com/cyber/books/imitation/imitation.html)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
Manhood is not simply a matter of being male and reaching a certain age. These are acts of nature; manhood is a sustained act of character.

This sentence really stood out to me. It is taking me years of hard work to move my boys into manhood. I cannot imagine how boys without a father manage it. I know it happens - through other avenues of support (coaches, surrogate fathers, pastors, teachers).

Abdicated fatherhood is a blight upon this nation.

Gum

8 posted on 12/18/2003 2:49:16 PM PST by ChewedGum (http://king-of-fools.com)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
One minor point, but an important one nevertheless. Murphy Brown is depicted in this article as a woman who became pregnant and was then deserted by the father. This statement weakens the premise of "family values," because it implies that Murphy would have provided a father for her son if she hadn't been deserted.

Is my memory wrong, or wasn't Murphy determined to have a child out of wedlock, and didn't she refuse to reveal the father's name? And wasn't that why Quale made his statement about family values?
9 posted on 12/18/2003 2:52:54 PM PST by kitkat
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
Yes, this makes good sense. It's possible to do without a father in the house if a young boy has good luck with his male friends, inlaws, or teachers, but these days that is increasingly rare. For instance, an all-male boarding school used to do a pretty good job of straightening out problem boys, but of course now most of them are co-ed, even the military academies.
11 posted on 12/18/2003 3:01:29 PM PST by Cicero (Marcus Tullius)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
Everybody knows what's wrong. The schools, the popular culture, the elite culture, women working full-time to help pay the taxes, the ACLU poised to sue anybody and anything that moves if things aren't depraved enough to suit them, an ACLU-loving judiciary...

The thing is, how do we stop it?
16 posted on 12/18/2003 5:09:28 PM PST by squarebarb
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
The oldest lament in human society- this generation of kids is no good. Every group of adults says that about the current crop of youngsters. Nothing new or incisive here.

These 'wimps and barbarians' are the same group of kids who just overthrew two brutal regimes in the Middle-East. A society that creates men (and women) like that has got to be doing something right.

20 posted on 02/20/2004 8:59:12 AM PST by Modernman ("The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
The oldest lament in human society- this generation of kids is no good. Every group of adults says that about the current crop of youngsters. Nothing new or incisive here.

These 'wimps and barbarians' are the same group of kids who just overthrew two brutal regimes in the Middle-East. A society that creates men (and women) like that has got to be doing something right.

21 posted on 02/20/2004 9:00:57 AM PST by Modernman ("The strong do what they can, the weak suffer what they must." - Thucydides)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
Any boy who showed any signs of being what this article is trying to call for, would quickly be put on Ritalin and suspended from public schools.

If he made it to college, he would be called a hetero white male Christian, and given D's and F's by lesbian and minority female professors, and would drop out.

The young males become what this article laments, because that is the only way they can survive at all.
22 posted on 02/20/2004 9:15:22 AM PST by Chris Talk (What Earth now is, Mars once was. What Mars now is, Earth will become.)
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To: waRNmother.armyboots
BTTT
23 posted on 02/20/2004 9:19:55 AM PST by spodefly (February is Tagline History Month!)
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