ABORTION

Catholic Citizens of Illinois ^ | 12-16-03 | Barbara Kralis

[conservonator]

486 is better than pba.

How so?

[tray-sea]

I agree I am sure this will bite them in the butt later on. Personally, as I have stated before I'd rather see someone ruin their pregnancy -- before implantation vs. an abortion of what I would consider a baby (for me it's after implantation-- and definately as it forms that first month).
Do I think it's morally right, no.
Do I care if kids gets STD's in record numbers, no (aside from the finanical burden of more tax dollars), NO, NO NO.
I will expect to be in my childs face about their actions and they will learn to take responsibility for each and every one.

There are consequences to such actions, if our kids get more "whore-ish" and it's "bites" them in the ass then that's the consequence. So we change the scenerio from a 16 year old having a baby, now they have AIDS --

Point is Abortion is here to stay, unfortunately.
I admire the folks that are able to keep a hard line against this morning after pill. I can't b/c I think it's a better alternative. If people abuse it then they will suffer a consequence.

Oh, I think by prespricption (or at the Planned Parenthood place they can dole it out like candy). I don't want to see it at Walgreens on the shelf by the feminine products, really.

I've said my peace. Thanks.

[Modernman]

How do you measure that line?

That's a good question, and the answer is probably best left to people with a much better understanding of neurobiology etc. I do tend to err on the side of sentience, though. If there are scientific questions as to whether a baby in the womb is sentient or not at a certain point in its development, I would not allow abortion at that point. However, if there is no argument that the baby, at that particular point, is sentient (such as 72 hours after conception) I have no problems with terminating the pregnancy.

[conservonator]

Both the IUD and morning after pill prevent implantation.

I think you're missing his point. Life doesn't begin at implementation, it begins at conception.

[Campion]

No one could logically argue that an adult human is not a human being.

Of course they can. All they have to do is to draw that arbitrary line you draw at "sentience" ... somewhere else. After all, it's merely your opinion that a human being is defined by "sentience" (whatever "sentience" is ... do you cease to be a human being when you are asleep?). Someone else can have a different opinion. What makes yours more valid than his?

[Fester Chugabrew]

Safe, effective, and accessible emergency contraception is one of the most important tools for reducing the unacceptably high number of unintended pregnancies.

So this individual takes it upon himself to speak for the worlds' entire population in declaring what is "unacceptably high" when it comes to the number of times another human being is conceived without our "permission." How pompous and self-serving can one be?

[Rubber_Duckie_27]

Yup. I never even mentioned what method my fiance and I intend to use for family planning and they jumped on me like fleas on a dog. That's just about what I figured would end up happening, unfortunately. It's a mindset that's tough for many to comprehend.

I do take the Pill (actually, the patch). *gasp* It's for purely medical reasons. I've never used it as a contraceptive, but it has helped me immensely in terms of caring for certain "female issues" which I will not discuss further in this forum. The rabid pro-lifers would rather keep me from having this relief because of the remote chance that the drug could be preventing implantation of a fertilized ovum.

For what it's worth, I feel that life begins at implantation. Many women who are actively trying to have a child will have an egg fertilized that then fails to implant. This apparently happens fairly often, and the woman rarely knows that an egg was even fertilized. As soon as that fertilized ovum implants, it's a pregnancy, and willfully terminating it is abortion. Before implantation, it's a crap shoot regardless of if the mother is intending to contracept or not.

I know of a pro-lifer who feels a woman with an ectopic pregnancy should allow herself to die, because surgery will kill the baby (who cannot survive anyways). That opinion will not win any hearts and minds to the pro-life cause.

Rabid pro-lifers only alienate those in society who are not ultra-religious by saying that "Jesus says you're killing your baby." There are far better ways to achieve pro-life goals without passing self-righteous judgement on those who choose to contracept. Feminists for Life is one secular group whose goals I share, yet they present their case without calling names or invoking a diety that many don't believe in anyways.

Ah, time to don my asbestos suit...

[Modernman]

All they have to do is to draw that arbitrary line you draw at "sentience" ... somewhere else.

Certainly, and I can see the potential for abuse by drawing lines. However, I am pragmatic about this issue. At the end of the day, our society needs to come to some type of consensus as to what type of abortion, if any, is acceptable. The consensus now seems to be that partial-birth abortion goes too far, as does "life begins at conception." As usual, the solution is somewhere in the middle. My definition (life begins at sentience) is much closer to "life begins at conception" than it is to "life begins when the baby is fully borne."

[Fester Chugabrew]

"Fight the battles you can win."

Your advice sounds reasonable on the face of it, but it is by no means essential. The "fight" for good never ends. There will always be battles to win, both big and small. And from a human standpoint there will always be battles lost.

In this case pro-lifers should be encouraged to speak as clearly and as truly as ever.

[Campion]

At the end of the day, our society needs to come to some type of consensus as to what type of abortion, if any, is acceptable.

Our side isn't going to move, and isn't going to be silenced, either, at least not peacefully. The other side isn't going to go away, either, barring a Divinely-ordained miracle. Given that, no "consensus" is possible.

[Modernman]

Given that, no "consensus" is possible.

The pro-choice side has a supreme court decision on their side. Unless the pro-life movement is willing to compromise to some extent, it will never be able to get enough of America to agree with it to either (a) appoint enough justices to the bench to overturn Wade or (b) get some type of constitutional amendment passed.

[jwalsh07]

Well, I'm curious, based on your understanding of the definition of sentience, where do you draw that line?

[RedBloodedAmerican]

I feel a movie poster coming on...

[Desdemona]

The pro-choice side has a supreme court decision on their side.

Since when is the USSC and arbiter or morality or competent in science? They're all lawyers.

[jwalsh07]

The pro-choice side has a supreme court decision on their side. Unless the pro-life movement is willing to compromise to some extent, it will never be able to get enough of America to agree with it to either (a) appoint enough justices to the bench to overturn Wade or (b) get some type of constitutional amendment passed.

Actually pro life positions are the majority position in this country among the citizenry and the younger generations are much more pro choice than the boomers. Most people support the banning of late term abortions, favor parental notification in the case of minors accessing abortion services and are opposed to abortion as a method of birth control.

The judiciary is a horse of a different color.

[MHGinTN]

You asserted (vacuously), "A toddler and a post-adolescent are both fully-actualized humans ..." Only by your arbitrarily chosen standard, which dehumanizes the earliest ages in the individual lifetime ... destroy the zygote and you will never reach toddlerhood because destroying the zygote destroys THE ORGANISM. At least you're honest enough to admit that you choose to focus upon sentience ... but could you explain for us when the human being is fully actualized, as in fully sentient? Are you aware that the brain continues to build brain cells and make connections well beyond birth?

[MHGinTN]

You asserted (vacuously), "No one could logically argue that an adult human is not a human being." Ever heard of the SCOTUS Dred Scott decision? You might want to do a bit of reading before opening yourself up any further.

[luckystarmom]

So you are against IUDs also?????

[luckystarmom]

As I use an IUD, I agree with you. People do not say that a woman who has endemetriosis is having a miscarriage every time she has a fertilized egg that does not implant. People/doctors say that she can't get pregnant.

[republicofdavis]

your discussion about when life begins and the impact of the IUD and birth control pills is interesting, but I think conservonator misses the bigger picture. The birth control genie is never going to go back in the bottle. Most people will never accept that these methods of birth control are morally equivalent to an abortion of an actual baby that looks like a baby.

You're winning minds on PBA and people are starting to listen more to the pro-life position. Don't destroy that by telling Mr. and Mrs. Suburb that Mom can't take the Pill because then she'll be a murderer.