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Escape into Reality: THE GOSPEL ACCORDING TO TOLKIEN
BreakPoint ^ | 17 Dec 03 | Chuck Colson

Posted on 12/17/2003 7:15:44 PM PST by Mr. Silverback

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To: keri
I'm not sure I understand

Adam and Eve's existence prior to The Fall was fundamentally different than ours today. They lived in a state called "natural happiness." Their human natures were perfectly ordered. They could not die. Their emotions were perfectly aligned with their intellects, unlike today, where as a result of the fall, our natures are damaged. Our emotions are frequently at war against our intellects.

Since they couldn't die, theoretically, they would have lived happily on earth forever. But mankind would not have had the possibility of entering Heaven and experiencing eternal bliss or supernatural happiness, a state of happiness immeasurably (infinitely?) greater than a state of natural happiness. But because death entered the world through Adam's sin, God, out of his infinite mercy and love for us, sent us a Redeemer whose death on a cross would open the gates of Heaven and make eternal, heavenly bliss possible for mankind.

41 posted on 12/19/2003 10:47:11 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Well said sir!

God Bless,

Mel

42 posted on 12/19/2003 10:56:51 AM PST by melsec
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To: Aquinasfan
Adam and Eve's original intended life was a closed loop, lacking the unique insights we gain through struggle, mortality and change. They would have been no more relevent than a painting or sculpture in the grand scheme without the challenges forced upon them by the fall. Caught like everyone in it, I can't imagine an existance of perpetual sameness and complacency devoid of the never-ceasing lessons of our reality's oft cruel yet instructional experiences. Those along with the occasional high spots of blissful happiness, the varied-ness, of mortal life make me suspect that an eternity of sameness, no matter how "holy", may be a hell in itself after living life as we do. Perhaps the idea that we blend together after death to become part of a larger whole compensates (as several religions suggest). I could accept that if I retained access to all that I was. I certainly wouldn't want to be forced to share the psyches of the Bundys, Dahmers and Hitlers of the world (though they would inversely be improved by forced proximity with purer souls). Who truly knows? As I said above, Tolkein was telling us to do what we can while we can for good and to never lose hope. If one dies in finality with no afterlife then you will have done your best to improve the conditions of those who continue. My intellect tells me that Christ is a fable but my heart clings to him regardless. He represents hope and the best part of us all without prejudice or judgement, love for its own sake. You won't find that in a madras or mosque.
Merry Christmas everyone!
43 posted on 12/20/2003 6:17:23 PM PST by NewRomeTacitus (Note who replaces Christmas with Holidays and spend accordingly..)
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To: NewRomeTacitus
Those along with the occasional high spots of blissful happiness, the varied-ness, of mortal life make me suspect that an eternity of sameness, no matter how "holy", may be a hell in itself after living life as we do.

Jesus tells us that eye has not seen and ear has not heard what awaits us in heaven. When it comes down to it, I trust Jesus' teaching more than my own speculations regarding eternity. After all, He is God. He should know.

Regardless, there is also Augustine's intuitive argument regarding the "God-shaped hole in our hearts." We yearn for absolute happiness in this world, yet we never attain it. God provides an object for all of our natural desires in this world. Isn't it a bit of a contradiction to suppose that there is nothing to satisfy the universal human longing for absolute happiness, either in this world or the next?

44 posted on 12/21/2003 5:40:59 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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To: Aquinasfan
Well, I admit that I am interested in the "fall of man". But, the explanation you've given me is not something I can accept. I understand it, but cannot accept it because it makes the creator appear foolish and wishy-washy.

Does God change his plans? Does the creator really gamble with his creatures this way? Would he change his purpose?

If you are right, it would seem that he has. Thanks for the clear explanation. (I truly hope this doesn't offend)

45 posted on 12/21/2003 10:05:10 AM PST by keri
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To: keri
I understand it, but cannot accept it because it makes the creator appear foolish and wishy-washy. Does God change his plans?

No. God by definition is immovable. He cannot change His plans. However, it may appear to us that this is the case.

God gave us free will, which means that we are free to disobey Him. But if we can disobey Him, is He all powerful? Yes. This is logically possible if He can use our disobedience to accomplish His ends (i.e., the salvation of those so worthy). He can do this because He knows everything that will ever happen.

There's an expression that I think is apt. "God paints straight with crooked lines." This might help:

Providence in general, or foresight, is a function of the virtue of prudence, and may be defined as the practical reason, adapting means to an end. As applied to God, Providence is God Himself considered in that act by which in His wisdom He so orders all events within the universe that the end for which it was created may be realized. That end is that all creatures should manifest the glory of God, and in particular that man should glorify Him, recognizing in nature the work of His hand, serving Him in obedience and love, and thereby attaining to the full development of his nature and to eternal happiness in God...God preserves the universe in being; He acts in and with every creature in each and all its activities. In spite of sin, which is due to the wilful perversion of human liberty, acting with the concurrence, but contrary to the purpose and intention of God and in spite of evil which is the consequence of sin, He directs all, even evil and sin itself, to the final end for which the universe was created.

Providence
Catholic Encyclopedia

The following question arises. How can God allow evil to occur in order to accomplish His ends? First, God created beings capable of love, and in order to love one must be free to choose to do good rather than evil. Secondly, for God, unlike human beings, the ends can justify the means. In this world, everything is a means. There is no reachable, ultimate, earthly end for human beings. The proper object of human life is eternal life with God. But since we cannot possibly know how our actions will affect the salvation of all other people in toto, we cannot order our actions to this end. All we can do is to order our proximate actions to the good.

But God can know how our actions will affect the salvation of all other people. So He can allow evil to occur in order that greater good may come, that more people will ultimately be saved. This then doesn't violate the essential goodness of God's will since he doesn't directly will evil, only allowing it so that greater good may come.

This also touches on the difficult issue of Predestination

46 posted on 12/22/2003 5:29:45 AM PST by Aquinasfan (Isaiah 22:22, Rev 3:7, Mat 16:19)
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