Posted on 12/16/2003 5:54:51 AM PST by sitetest
Edited on 12/16/2003 7:13:44 AM PST by Lead Moderator. [history]
[LM's note: This thread is degenerating a bit into Catholic bashing and general flaming, and is in risk of being moved to the smokey backroom. Please stop. I've locked it once, and it has continued. Any more and it is gone. Thanks.]
VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - A top Vatican (news - web sites) official said Tuesday he felt pity and compassion for Saddam Hussein (news - web sites) and criticized the U.S. military for showing video footage of him being treated "like a cow."
Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department and a former papal envoy to the United Nations (news - web sites), told a news conference it would be "illusory" to think the arrest of the former Iraqi president would heal all the damage caused by a war which the Holy See opposed.
"I felt pity to see this man destroyed, (the military) looking at his teeth as if he were a cow. They could have spared us these pictures," he said.
"Seeing him like this, a man in his tragedy, despite all the heavy blame he bears, I had a sense of compassion for him," he said in answer to questions about Saddam's arrest.
Martino was referring to the videotape released by the U.S. military which showed a grubby, bearded and disheveled Saddam receiving a medical examination by a military doctor after his capture in an underground hole Saturday.
Martino was one of the Vatican officials most strongly opposed to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq (news - web sites).
"It's true that we should be happy that this (arrest) has come about because it is the watershed that was necessary... we hope that this will not have worse and other serious consequences," Martino said.
"But it is not the total solution to the problems of the Middle East," he said.
Martino said the Vatican hoped the arrest of Saddam "can contribute to promoting peace and the democratization of Iraq."
He added: "But is seems to me to be illusory to hope that this will repair the dramas and the damage of the defeat for humanity that a war always brings about."
The Vatican did not consider the war in Iraq "a just war" because it was not backed by the United Nations and because the Vatican believed more negotiations were necessary to avoid it.
Martino said the Vatican wanted an "appropriate institution" to put Saddam on trial but he did not elaborate.
U.S. forces were keeping the ousted 66-year-old dictator at a secret location for interrogation before he is put on trial in the months ahead. He could face the death penalty.
The news conference was called for Martino to present the World Day of Peace message, in which Pope John Paul (news - web sites) took a swipe at the United States for invading Iraq without the backing of the United Nations.
So the question is: was the display for the purpose of the greater good? There is nothing immoral about the display, thus this is not a "double effect" trick question....
In the opinion of the USA (possibly even including the Department of State), making it crystal clear that Saddam is now a prisoner produced a greater good in reassuring Iraqis (and others) than simply asserting that we had him and showing 'holy pictures' later.
Maybe the USA is right. On the other hand, it is up to the Martinos of this world to prove otherwise.
The ends do not necessarily justify the means, so that a ‘greater good’ analysis of a course of action is incomplete. And shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy, since Cardinal Martino could just shift it right back to you, and the discussion would be no closer to the truth. In March, Rumsfeld said on CBS, “The Geneva Convention indicates that it's not permitted to photograph and embarrass or humiliate prisoners of war.” In particular, the Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of prisoners of war for propaganda purposes, or subjecting POWs to violations of their personal dignity, including humiliating and degrading treatment, and “public curiosity”. These Conventions are in part based upon an underlying ethical foundation regarding the proper treatment of the human person. The Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain and the Greek Orthodox philosopher Charles Malik, who both deeply influenced the framing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions, were themselves both deeply influenced by the Catholic encyclicals Rerum novarum and Quadragesimo anno, texts which set forth a clear philosophical foundation for human rights. So insofar as Cardinal Martino is speaking as a Catholic, his concern is grounded in a consideration of the ethics of the treatment of any human person. The ethical concern transcends any technicality concerning whether Saddam is legally a prisoner of war or not. Saddam is still a human being; that is the basis for the Cardinal’s concern.
Republican Wildcat wrote: "You are equating the treatment of the U.S. Soldiers being interrogated on television to showing Saddam on video to prove that we had captured him? Am I reading your post correctly?"
I did not equate these two incidents. They do, however, have in common the using of video of a prisoner of war for propaganda purposes, violating their dignity, humiliating them, and subjecting them to public curiosity.
I wrote: "The Cardinal’s having pity on Saddam does not indicate that the Cardinal lacks pity for Saddam’s victims, or does not wish Saddam to be punished for his crimes."
Catspaw replied:
“You know this how? Some sort of clairvoyance, perhaps?
No. By logic. It is merely a matter of deductive reasoning.
If the Cardinal has said so in print, please post the story. If you cannot show me where this Cardinal has shown one iota of compassion towards Saddam's victims, his silence is telling.
If you are not familiar with the Vatican’s (and thus the Cardinal’s) position on genocide and all other such violations of human rights, see the documents I linked above. I also recommend Pope JPII’s Address to the United Nations General Assembly, his Evangelium Vitae, and Gaudium et Spes.
This Cardinal's sole concern seems to be how Saddam was being treated so rudely by US forces.
Undoubtedly, the Cardinal should have supplemented his comments with the obligatory denunciation of genocide, torture, gassing, death-by-insertion-into-plastic shredders, and the mass murder of innocents, since there are many who will reason from his failure to supplement his remarks in that manner that his sole concern is the well-being of Saddam and that he has utter disregard and apathy for Saddam’s many victims.
They're not cheap. They're right on target, when he's wrong on things like the Iraqi war and capital punishment.
God bless you and yours.
LOL!! You're the one who told me you drank beer for an entire Sunday.
Sorry you don't like me, dimp.
I'm not vindictive, dimp.
But YOU are.
Cite the comments of support, please. I've read to your post and saw none.
Charming.
Wanna bet?
I meant 'captured', of course. .....And btw, Saddam has NOT been formally classified as a POW, so your "Geneva Convention" argument doesn't apply.
Clearly I am not the one with comprehension problems.
I even made a point to say I'd only read to the post I was replying to in case someone came along after to "support" the Cardinal. Even then, it was more an explanation than support.
But I don't expect you to "comprehend" that.
He said "I wouldn't even have a beer with this guy." He encouraged Catholics to ignore him, and other Vatican functionaries like him, and continue to support your local parish.
And I see your point, as well. We agree after all, it appears! And for that I am glad.
This catholic requests that the Cardinal shut his trap ..
Ever hear about their creative use for industrial plastic shredders? Thought not.
Go bleed on someone else's sleeve, Your Eminence.
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