Cardinal Says U.S. Treated Saddam 'Like a Cow'

Yahoo! News / Reuters ^ | 12-16-2003 | Philip Pullella

[adiaireton8]

Ninenot wrote: Regardless of Plato or, for that matter, Card. Martino's sensibilities, the reason that Saddam's puss was displayed in the videos was to convince Iraqis that, yes indeed, we had the guy.

So the question is: was the display for the purpose of the greater good? There is nothing immoral about the display, thus this is not a "double effect" trick question....

In the opinion of the USA (possibly even including the Department of State), making it crystal clear that Saddam is now a prisoner produced a greater good in reassuring Iraqis (and others) than simply asserting that we had him and showing 'holy pictures' later.

Maybe the USA is right. On the other hand, it is up to the Martinos of this world to prove otherwise.

The ends do not necessarily justify the means, so that a ‘greater good’ analysis of a course of action is incomplete. And shifting the burden of proof is a fallacy, since Cardinal Martino could just shift it right back to you, and the discussion would be no closer to the truth. In March, Rumsfeld said on CBS, “The Geneva Convention indicates that it's not permitted to photograph and embarrass or humiliate prisoners of war.” In particular, the Geneva Conventions prohibit the use of prisoners of war for propaganda purposes, or subjecting POWs to violations of their personal dignity, including humiliating and degrading treatment, and “public curiosity”. These Conventions are in part based upon an underlying ethical foundation regarding the proper treatment of the human person. The Catholic philosopher Jacques Maritain and the Greek Orthodox philosopher Charles Malik, who both deeply influenced the framing of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights and the Geneva Conventions, were themselves both deeply influenced by the Catholic encyclicals Rerum novarum and Quadragesimo anno, texts which set forth a clear philosophical foundation for human rights. So insofar as Cardinal Martino is speaking as a Catholic, his concern is grounded in a consideration of the ethics of the treatment of any human person. The ethical concern transcends any technicality concerning whether Saddam is legally a prisoner of war or not. Saddam is still a human being; that is the basis for the Cardinal’s concern.

Republican Wildcat wrote: "You are equating the treatment of the U.S. Soldiers being interrogated on television to showing Saddam on video to prove that we had captured him? Am I reading your post correctly?"

I did not equate these two incidents. They do, however, have in common the using of video of a prisoner of war for propaganda purposes, violating their dignity, humiliating them, and subjecting them to public curiosity.

I wrote: "The Cardinal’s having pity on Saddam does not indicate that the Cardinal lacks pity for Saddam’s victims, or does not wish Saddam to be punished for his crimes."

Catspaw replied:

“You know this how? Some sort of clairvoyance, perhaps?

No. By logic. It is merely a matter of deductive reasoning.

If the Cardinal has said so in print, please post the story. If you cannot show me where this Cardinal has shown one iota of compassion towards Saddam's victims, his silence is telling.

If you are not familiar with the Vatican’s (and thus the Cardinal’s) position on genocide and all other such violations of human rights, see the documents I linked above. I also recommend Pope JPII’s Address to the United Nations General Assembly, his Evangelium Vitae, and Gaudium et Spes.

This Cardinal's sole concern seems to be how Saddam was being treated so rudely by US forces.

Undoubtedly, the Cardinal should have supplemented his comments with the obligatory denunciation of genocide, torture, gassing, death-by-insertion-into-plastic shredders, and the mass murder of innocents, since there are many who will reason from his failure to supplement his remarks in that manner that his sole concern is the well-being of Saddam and that he has utter disregard and apathy for Saddam’s many victims.

[sinkspur]

you also take cheap shots at JP II at every opportunity

They're not cheap. They're right on target, when he's wrong on things like the Iraqi war and capital punishment.

[BlackElk]

Private Shoshanna Johnson, the black soldier from Texas who was taken prisoner with Private Lynch, is also Catholic. Her family appealed that rosary beads be sent to her and that she be allowed to receive them.

God bless you and yours.

[sinkspur]

You sink are a mean, judgemental little Amchurchian who specializes in vindictive attacks and sweeping statements

LOL!! You're the one who told me you drank beer for an entire Sunday.

Sorry you don't like me, dimp.

I'm not vindictive, dimp.

But YOU are.

[mercy]

Good answers. Makes me think. My only 'real' argument with papists is this insistence of theirs that the RC church is the only church of Christ. I can't stand institutions holding themselves up to be devine. The only devine church is the Body of Christ and that is everyone who accepts the sacrifical Blood of Christ shed for their sins as sole payment for their sins.

This acceptance IS Christianity as far as I am concerned and the RC exclusionary game is why I take the word Protestant serriously.

[BlackElk]

I saw no quotation marks around the bolded language to indicate that it was the pope rather than some secular editor that made that claim. Sounds like an editorial to me.

[mercy]

This Cardinal is an anti-american puke.

[cyncooper]

What strikes me about the comments is that there are always some who will support the statements of church officals, no matter how ridiculous they may be.

Cite the comments of support, please. I've read to your post and saw none.

[cyncooper]

Ugh...I am beginning to believe all the stories saying Catholics really REALLY don't know their bibles.

Charming.

Wanna bet?

[rogator]

"...priest's church cover up and deny the act "

The actions of individual bihops do not represent the policies of the church.

Abuse of children by anyone is reprehensible. You might want to visit "reformation.com" to see the names of hundreds or thousands of clergymen of many denominations connected with such behavior. You might even find some from your own denomination.

Many of the comments on this thread are just plain Catholic bashing and expose those making them as hate-filled bigots. I would expect to see these kind of comments on DU.

[Mr. Mojo]

that he was in fact dead.

I meant 'captured', of course. .....And btw, Saddam has NOT been formally classified as a POW, so your "Geneva Convention" argument doesn't apply.

[Wolfhound777]

Martino is a demon using the religion as cover. He will get his due on judgment day, you can be sure of that.

[Iowegian]

I don't have a cure for your reading comprehension problems, but if you go the "view replies" for the post of mine that you quoted you will find one of them, also see Romulus' post, among others.

[cajungirl]

I did not mean to insult Catholics. I was ashamed when Clinton was our president,,deeply ashamed that people all over the world thought that clinton represented all of us. I see your point however.

[cyncooper]

I don't have a cure for your reading comprehension problems

Clearly I am not the one with comprehension problems.

I even made a point to say I'd only read to the post I was replying to in case someone came along after to "support" the Cardinal. Even then, it was more an explanation than support.

But I don't expect you to "comprehend" that.

[BlackElk]

Renato Cardinal Martino certainly did serve at the UN (couldn't you tell by his "intellectual" Euroweenieism and knee-jerk anti-Americanism?) but, of course, the United States is not, thank God, subject to the United Nations or an equivalent of that zoological debating society from hell. Onetime Texas US Senator Tom Connolly may also be thanked for the Connolly Reservation to the UN Treaty which protected US sovereignty from the UN's wildest schemes, at least so far. Martino NEVER served as nuncio to the United States. The pope has far more respect for the United States (at least when the Arkansas Antichrist or Mrs. Antichrist is not president) than to send this schlep to our country as nuncio.

[sinkspur]

Bill Donahue, Director of the Catholic League, trashed Martino pretty severely on Neil Cavuto's show this afternoon. Donahue is no liberal, either.

He said "I wouldn't even have a beer with this guy." He encouraged Catholics to ignore him, and other Vatican functionaries like him, and continue to support your local parish.

[cyncooper]

I did not mean to insult Catholics. I was ashamed when Clinton was our president,,deeply ashamed that people all over the world thought that clinton represented all of us. I see your point however.

And I see your point, as well. We agree after all, it appears! And for that I am glad.

[Mo1]

Cardinal Renato Martino, head of the Vatican's Justice and Peace department and a former papal envoy to the United Nations (news - web sites), told a news conference it would be "illusory" to think the arrest of the former Iraqi president would heal all the damage caused by a war which the Holy See opposed

This catholic requests that the Cardinal shut his trap ..

[RightOnline]

Hey Cardinal...............ask Saddam how he would have treated those in that hole if the roles had been reversed.

Ever hear about their creative use for industrial plastic shredders? Thought not.

Go bleed on someone else's sleeve, Your Eminence.