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French report backs ban on veil, skullcap, cross
Haaretz ^ | 12/11/2003 | Reuters

Posted on 12/11/2003 2:48:16 PM PST by yonif

PARIS - France should ban Muslim veils, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses from its public schools, while creating new holidays to respect holy days of minority religions, an official report said on Thursday.

The long-awaited report on church-state relations, the center-piece of a national debate over integrating Muslims into French society, advised Paris to stand firm against militant Islamists trying to undermine official secularism.

It also urged traditionally Catholic France to respect "all spiritual options" in its ever more diverse society and stressed that sexual equality was a key criterion in deciding whether certain practices were considered acceptable.

President Jacques Chirac said he would announce next Wednesday whether he would seek a law banning the veil, now a major issue in France amid concern of failed Muslim integration and growing Islamist influence. He has hinted he backs a ban.

France, once so Catholic it was called "the eldest daughter of the Church", is now eight percent Muslim and Islam is its second-largest religion. But eight of its 13 national holidays are based on Christian feasts such as Christmas and Easter.

Its five-million-strong Muslim community and its 600,000 Jews are both the largest minorities of their kind in Europe.

"Secularism essentially means respect for differences," Bernard Stasi, chairman of the special commission that drew up the 67-page report, told a news conference.

But he added: "We must be lucid - there are in France some behaviors which cannot be tolerated. There are without any doubt forces in France which are seeking to destabilise the republic and it is time for the republic to react."

Christian, Muslim and some Jewish religious leaders have in recent days urged Chirac not to seek an outright ban.

The French Council of the Muslim Faith, which say the veil is a religious obligation for women, repeated its opposition to a ban after the report was issued but pledged to back "anything that can strengthen the spirit of concord and tolerance".

The commission proposed barring "conspicuous signs of political or religious affiliation" but said discreet medals - such as a small cross or Star of David - were acceptable.

It also suggested adding Yom Kippur, the Jewish day of atonement, and the Eid al-Fitr festival at the end of Islam's Ramadan fasting month to a list of official school holidays.

Companies were advised to consider ways of allowing employees to take off the religious holiday of their choice.

Apart from the veil, the commission also investigated issues such as Muslim women refusing treatment by male doctors, pupils challenging teachers about the Holocaust and a "new anti-Semitism" among disaffected Muslim youths.

"This anti-Semitism is real in our country," commission secretary Remy Schwartz said. "We found children have to leave public schools in some areas because they are not physically secure... This has profoundly shocked the commission."

The commission was also shocked by cases of discrimination against women and said sexual equality was one of the guiding principles it used for reaching its conclusions.

Schwartz said Muslim girls said they were pressured into wearing veils by family and "outside groups" - a reference to activists officials say are promoting strict religious practices among French Muslims, who are of mostly North African origin.

"Many asked for protection from the state, that the state forbids the wearing of religious symbols in school to guarantee their protection and their individual freedom," he said.

Kamal Kabtane, head of the Grand Mosque of Lyon, said Muslims would respect an anti-veil law, but added: "This decision will resolve nothing at all. It will only add to the confusion."

Former Socialist Education Minister Jack Lang criticised the commission's proposals for not banning all religious symbols.

Jacques Barrot, parliamentary leader of Chirac's UMP party, repeated his reservations about opting for a ban, while the Communist Party criticised the ban and called for a broad public debate about the integration of immigrant communities.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs; Front Page News; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: cross; france; frenchchristians; frenchjews; skullcap; veil
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1 posted on 12/11/2003 2:48:17 PM PST by yonif
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To: SJackson; Yehuda; Nachum; Paved Paradise; Thinkin' Gal; Bobby777; adam_az; Alouette; IFly4Him; ...
France should ban Muslim veils, Jewish skullcaps and large Christian crosses from its public schools, while creating new holidays to respect holy days of minority religions, an official report said on Thursday.
2 posted on 12/11/2003 2:48:33 PM PST by yonif ("If I Forget Thee, O Jerusalem, Let My Right Hand Wither" - Psalms 137:5)
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To: yonif
Count on the French to be oblivious to the functional and symbolic differences between a veil and a worn yarmulke or cross.
3 posted on 12/11/2003 2:51:31 PM PST by thoughtomator (The U.N. is a terrorist organization)
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To: yonif
This is very sad, and it is what I predicted. It isn't about Islam with the French, it is about abject hostility to God.
4 posted on 12/11/2003 2:53:46 PM PST by BenLurkin (Socialism is Slavery)
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To: yonif
Former Socialist Education Minister Jack Lang criticized the commission's proposals for not banning all religious symbols.

... while the Communist Party criticized the ban and called for a broad public debate about the integration of immigrant communities.

So the socialists are against the communists. Is this part of Bush's war on terrorism turning the enemy on themselves?

5 posted on 12/11/2003 3:11:30 PM PST by LoneRangerMassachusetts
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To: yonif
The enlightened eurinals.
6 posted on 12/11/2003 3:13:44 PM PST by dead (I used to believe in a lot of things. All of it! Now I believe only in dynamite.)
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To: BenLurkin
So sad. France is so lost. Such a great nation reduced to such simplistic and impotent repressive secularism. Ironically- by banning these religious symbols they will make each group identify even more with their own kind and see the other as "different" and thus a potential enemy.
7 posted on 12/11/2003 3:15:25 PM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: Burkeman1
I predict the following chain of events will come to pass in the not-too-distant future:

Step 1: Eiffel Tower and/or the Louvre will become runways.

Step 2: The French will surrender.

Step 3: Gendarmes and soldiers will distribute Muslim garb "for-free" from flat-bed trailers throughout France.

Step 4: The Cathedral of Notre Dame will be under new management and remodeled to become the grandest mosque in all of Islam.

Vivisection La France!!...

8 posted on 12/11/2003 3:30:39 PM PST by tracer
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To: tracer
Or- the reverse. The current "believe in nothing" left of center policies will create such a hatred of immigrants and other non French Catholics that French Fascists will arise and take power and do some rather unspeakable deeds. France is always just one step away from an extreme ideology taking hold over them- wether from the right or the left. That is why the current French "Republic" is semi authoritarian in nature and always has been. But if the current Leftists in France (and Chirac is supposed to be their "right") alow the same level of muslem immigration and keep surrendering to muslem immigrant demands that destroy French culture- a fascist and racist movement will take hold in France.
9 posted on 12/11/2003 3:46:16 PM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: yonif
Amazingly, all 3 are issues almost exclusively because of violence comitted by muslim males.
10 posted on 12/11/2003 3:59:29 PM PST by sharktrager (There are 2 kids of people in this world: people with loaded guns and people who dig.)
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To: yonif
"This anti-Semitism is real in our country," commission secretary Remy Schwartz said. "....This has profoundly shocked the commission."

What's shocking to me is you're shocked by the conditions in your OWN COUNTRY while I, sitting out here in BFE (West Texas) know more about what's going on France.

11 posted on 12/11/2003 4:17:02 PM PST by stands2reason (What good does it do you to "win" a debate in an insane asylum?)
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To: American in Israel; SJackson; yonif; Simcha7; spectacularbid2003; Binyamin; Taiwan Bocks; ...
American in Israel, make sure you see this one, partner. Seems your eloquent and shrewd conclusions here at the Victor Davis Hanson: A Real War, Fighting the worst fascists since Hitler are seeing some real world manifestations in France.

I have no doubts you will be simply SHOCKED.

< /sarcasm>



If you'd like to be on or off this
Christian Supporters of Israel ping list,
please FR mail me. ~
  -  -
There failed not ought of any good thing which the LORD had
spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass. (Joshua 21:45)

Letter To The President In Support Of Israel ~
'Final Solution,' Phase 2 ~

12 posted on 12/11/2003 6:02:32 PM PST by Salem (FREE REPUBLIC - Fighting to win within the Arena of the War of Ideas! So get in the fight!)
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To: yonif
But I bet these pigs will allow Earth worship, pentagrams, and a Black Mass.....
13 posted on 12/11/2003 6:04:48 PM PST by Viking2002
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To: yonif
Banning religious clothing?

Must be part of that progressive "enlightened" Euro mindset I've heard so much about.
14 posted on 12/11/2003 6:32:04 PM PST by JCB
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To: Burkeman1
You raise some very good points, IMO.

And, BTW, I'll bet that we are argreement that it is folly to believe that "it couldn't happen here."

Scary.......

15 posted on 12/11/2003 6:47:21 PM PST by tracer
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To: Burkeman1
So sad. France is so lost. Such a great nation reduced to such simplistic and impotent repressive secularism.

At the risk of taking heat from lurking Frenchmen... When were the French ever a great people much less a great nation? Was that when King Philip was siding with a rogue Pope to massacre the noble Templars upon their return from the crusades? Or was it when they were encouraging American Indians to slaughter colonial women and children in their war for the Americas(setting the tone of hatred for the genocide that followed)? Was that back when, in the course of Liberty, they were guillotineing thousands of their own citizens. Maybe its when they bent over backwards and let a fascist butcher use them like a prostitute.

Food for thought. I do like their toast, though. But, California has better wine.


16 posted on 12/11/2003 7:31:38 PM PST by Mr.Atos
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To: Mr.Atos
Was it when the Englsh massacred the French Acadians and then transported the survivors to New Orleans? Oh- the English never encoraged the Iriquois, Huron, or MicMac to kill Frenchmen did they?

The French have a far greater history of land combat than do the English who mostly ruled from the seas. If not for the French and their defeat of the Moors and the Muslem expansion- Europe would not be the same.

France Lost 1.1 million Dead and 1.4 million wounded in WWI while we lost what? 150,000? And most of that to disease?

France lost 124,000 in 30 days when Germany invaded France in 1940! It took the United States to lose that many in how many years at war in WWII?

Hey- slick. Before you denigrate France and the French war dead why not go there and say so in a bar before a whole bunch of "French Cowards"- most of whom are more likely to be descended from a veteren than any American and they beat you to a bloody ignorant pulp!
17 posted on 12/11/2003 7:44:49 PM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: Burkeman1
Hey- slick. Before you denigrate France and the French war dead why not go there and say so in a bar before a whole bunch of "French Cowards"- most of whom are more likely to be descended from a veteren than any American and they beat you to a bloody ignorant pulp!

Been there. And not at all afraid to do just that. In fact, in light of their cheeky bravado and were it worth the price of a ticket, I just might. Perhaps I'll head to Vancouver this weekend instead and get a bit of sparring-time in on Canadians. Its been awhile.

As for you... Touche, my friend. You can stand down, as I am working late and just being deliberately provocative at the French expense. I have known and met wonderful French people and I do not doubt that the nation is full of individuals of strong character who support our cause.

Oh but how I would love to pick a bar fight tonight with one who did not.

You make good points. But, California still makes better wine.

Peace!


18 posted on 12/11/2003 7:58:05 PM PST by Mr.Atos
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To: Mr.Atos
I agree on the California wine thing. Much better wine.
19 posted on 12/11/2003 8:04:06 PM PST by Burkeman1 ("If you see ten troubles comin down the road, nine will run into the ditch before they reach you")
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To: Viking2002; Burkeman1
Nope. They have superheroes...designed to jigger the young in ways so as to make US, Americans, anathema to them. It's the *no real morality thing,* just like the Nazi supermodel. The blond gods that appealed to boys and girls, men and women. Wait til you see the *baddies.*


Too late. They have their super heroes ready to defang us!!!

(very high voice,) ohhhh nooooo....
Gasp! They're cominggg!!!!

And Burkeman, the French, Germans, Brits, and Spaniards have done their share of horror, destroying entire civilizations in their wakes. Africa is a dying monument to their need for conquest.

Half of my ancestry is Native here. They called the missionaries *Blackrobes* and it was surrender, convert, or die. Sounds like the Muslims now, centuries later. We have heard all those words before. (Now I call the Supreme Court the *Blackrobes.*)

Whatever the bitch, we have never done to Europe what Europe has seen fit to do to us and to others in so many places and in so many ways.
Immorality is what it is. It isn't enlightenment to be narcissistic, and they definitely are. It isn't sophisticated to resort to hedonism, but they do. It isn't civil to want to conquer the entire world, but they have been heartless conquerors and destroyers of civilizations.
You would think that they might have become civilized themselves by now. But they haven't. And they want to steal ours away.
They are doing it too, slowly but surely. It will never be time to forgive them for they have never sought forgiveness. In their smugness, they believe themselves superior.
Not in THIS life. They are arrogant and G-d willing, their time has run out.

20 posted on 12/11/2003 8:59:20 PM PST by Nix 2 (http://www.warroom.com QUINN AND ROSE IN THE AM)
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