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Army Right To Punish Lt. Col. West
Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 8 Dec 2003 | Jay Bookman

Posted on 12/09/2003 4:16:55 AM PST by Ispy4u

Under the strain of command in a dangerous situation, Lt. Col. Allen West committed a serious error in judgment. And in a military environment, such errors by a commanding officer cannot go unpunished.

Informed on Aug. 20 that an Iraqi policeman might have information about potential attacks on West and his troops, the colonel invited soldiers under his command to beat the suspect as West looked on. When that did not produce the desired effect, West threatened the prisoner, first firing a pistol into the air, then holding the pistol to the policeman's head and firing a shot into the ground nearby.

Not surprisingly, the terrified suspect then began babbling information. As is often the case when such crude techniques are used, it later proved impossible to verify whether that information was accurate or whether it had been invented by the suspect in a desperate attempt to save his life.

Nor was it clear that the suspect was guilty. As U.S. intelligence officers testified in a preliminary hearing in the case, Iraqis will often finger an innocent person to American troops as a way to wreak personal revenge on each other.

Unfortunately for West, there is no question whatsoever about his own behavior in the case, or that it violated U.S. Army regulations. After complaints were filed by other soldiers, the colonel was relieved of command and is awaiting word whether he will be court-martialed on charges of aggravated assault and communicating a threat. If found guilty, the well-respected officer could be sentenced to up to eight years in prison.

It is hard not to feel sympathy for West, and almost impossible to sit in judgment of him from afar. "If it's the lives of my men and their safety," he said in his preliminary hearing, "I'd go through hell with a gasoline can." His case has even drawn congressional interest, with two U.S. senators suggesting that West deserves to be commended for his actions, not prosecuted. And certainly, a prison term does seem an unduly harsh punishment.

It is even more difficult to condemn West for violating the standards of the Geneva Convention for warfare and occupation when more senior U.S. officials are themselves treating those rules as inconvenient guidelines that can be ignored at will. The hundreds of prisoners captured in Afghanistan and held under harsh conditions by the United States in Guantanamo Bay, for example, have been ruled ineligible for protection under the Geneva Convention because they are supposedly "enemy combatants" rather than prisoners of war.

That effort to redefine the problem calls to mind the argument used by the North Vietnamese more than 30 years ago to justify their cruel treatment of captured American aviators. John McCain and others in the Hanoi Hilton were not prisoners of war, we were told, but war criminals who deserved what they got. In other words, it is always easy to find a justification if you want one badly enough.

It is also true that in Iraq, we are engaged in a bitter struggle with people who do not recognize such distinctions. As the West case illustrates, it is tempting to then fight the battle on their terms, and in rare cases it may indeed be necessary to do so.

But those and other distinctions are part of why we're fighting. We believe such rules are important to civilized life; our opponents do not. In the eyes of the Iraqis, it is hard to distinguish ourselves from the previous regime if we ourselves do not attempt to live by the rules we claim to uphold. The suspect threatened by West, for example, was a policeman, and hundreds of U.S. personnel are trying hard every day to convince Iraqi policemen that such tactics are simply unacceptable.

For military reasons, punishing West in some way is mandatory. The tactics that he used that day contradict the values this country is supposed to be defending. Allowing an officer of his rank to evade consequences for such behavior would send an unmistakable signal up and down the ranks and greatly erode the discipline our soldiers rely upon in tough situations.

Certainly, the pressures of combat help explain his mistake. They do not excuse it.

Jay Bookman is the deputy editorial page editor.


TOPICS: Crime/Corruption; Foreign Affairs; Government; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: alanbwest; allenwest; col; ltcwest; west
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To: Ispy4u
Just exactly what do you know about interrogation techniques?
241 posted on 12/10/2003 3:57:45 AM PST by RightOnline
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To: Ispy4u
How many true fighting men are supposed to die in this war so that you and this author can stand on a principal that is not even an established principal? The problem is that there both of you are so myopic that clear and sharp differences appear as blurs. Given your profession as an intelligence clerk and his profession as an editor that failing is fatal both figuratively and literaly.

Really, how many people would you send to their deaths to defend your fuzzy thinking?

242 posted on 12/10/2003 4:16:00 AM PST by AndyJackson
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To: Ispy4u
the JAG and NCA determines special categories such as spy.

Now that is a strategy I love. Send all our lawyers to Iraq. No sacrifice to great for the national honor. They can fight terrorists with writ petitions.

243 posted on 12/10/2003 4:19:48 AM PST by AndyJackson
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To: Ispy4u
I will follow those laws and lawful orders as well.

Try expanding your mind a bit. That is the oath YOU took as an enlisted soldier. The oath of office for an officer is different. Here "merely" swears to defend the Constitution - a difference that means everything to an officer who takes the oath seriously. There is a much bigger picture than your petty-fogging kindergarten approach to the rules are the rules. There are lots of rules, and the UCMJ for all its simplicity is a very complex document. You are not expected to interpret the rules and decide what might apply to a particular circumstance and what might not. An officer is expected to make such judgments. That is why his oath is different than yours.

244 posted on 12/10/2003 4:27:28 AM PST by AndyJackson
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To: AndyJackson
I have really enjoyed your pious remarks over the last few weeks, I laugh everytime you spout off with your ignorance regarding Army operations, you don't know diddly and you never will. Try to keep your boat upright.
245 posted on 12/10/2003 4:30:22 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: AndyJackson
Fine Andy, explain how you can defend the Constitution, the basis of our laws and then break said laws.

Defense in depth is more than a distance on the ground.
246 posted on 12/10/2003 4:31:48 AM PST by Ispy4u
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To: milan
Does it bother you that West allowed his men to beat the prisoner and when he insisted he didn't have informtion then West went into his gun firing act.

Does it concern you that the rest of the story has not been reported. There is no information at all that the attack on this prisoner garnered any information of any use to our guys.

247 posted on 12/10/2003 5:32:42 AM PST by OldFriend (DEMS INHABIT A PARALLEL UNIVERSE)
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To: milan
Really need to control that temper, it limits those vast leadership qualities that you exhibit.
248 posted on 12/10/2003 6:01:30 AM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon (PEACE - Through Superior Firepower)
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To: Ispy4u
Oh, this is FAR from over. Anyone who thinks they have heard the end of this, they will soon find out how wrong they are.
249 posted on 12/10/2003 7:22:46 AM PST by Pukin Dog (Sans Reproache)
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
#248.

ROTFLMAO.

250 posted on 12/10/2003 7:36:11 AM PST by verity
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To: Ispy4u
FYI, Dec 10th Washington Times now covering the Article 32 recommendation.

HERE

251 posted on 12/10/2003 9:12:17 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: milan
Don't hold back, say what you feel. Thank you for your service and God Bless Lt Col West and all our Troops fighting so we can argue on the internet with the PC crowd ; )
252 posted on 12/10/2003 9:33:39 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Ignorance can be corrected with knowledge. Stupid is permanent.)
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon; verity
Just my opinion, but I wouldn't laugh at or make light of a guy whose sharing his combat experiences with you...whether you agree with his opinons or not.

That combat experience, where he was in the thick of it wth the lead flying, is the very thing through the years that has made it possible for us to engage in these debates

Like I said, just my own opinion. Pardon the intrusion, but I had to say it and get it out there.

253 posted on 12/10/2003 9:51:00 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Jeff Head
I'll cover your six on that one Jeff.
254 posted on 12/10/2003 10:19:58 AM PST by Conspiracy Guy (Ignorance can be corrected with knowledge. Stupid is permanent.)
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To: Jeff Head
Sir,

The guy is ranting like he spent years in war. Armor units spent a max of 100 hours in combat in Gulf War 1.

My position is that I understand what LCT West did, and have said I applaud him. The fact remains that he violated the UCMJ and may pay a price for doing so. He knew the rules, I knew the rules and every other soldier knows the rules.

I didn't make them up, and goodness knows we all violate rules and laws, but we know there is a penalty if caught. I do not want the street cop making up his own law (I have two for brothers-in-law) nor low level bureaucrats at State making foreign policy or LTC's in the field deciding who they will pull off the street and under what rules they will be treated.

The UCMJ has been established by men who have fought our wars for many years (and no they weren't all REMF) and when I dodged they draft by enlisting I agreed to support them. LTC West did also. They may be wrong in this case, we shall see.

For my part I hope he walks and they kick the asses of those who let this get past Brigade level.

255 posted on 12/10/2003 11:00:08 AM PST by HoustonCurmudgeon (PEACE - Through Superior Firepower)
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To: HoustonCurmudgeon
The fact remains he did see combat and was sharing his experience of it with you.

As regards the rest, particularly this:

For my part I hope he walks and they kick the asses of those who let this get past Brigade level.

I agree 100%.

And so does LTC West. He reported himself and expected the reprimand he aparently now (according to the recomendation coing out of the article 32 hearing) will receive.

I'll BUMP my latest correspondence directly with West to you.

256 posted on 12/10/2003 11:13:59 AM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Ispy4u
the day the AJC even thinks it has grounds to lecture on "errors in judgment" during combat situations is the day I hope they start the morphine drip. Fast. Not slow. LTC West is a combat leader and he proved it. Maybe you don't like what he did, maybe the AJC doesn't like what he did but I damn sure bet his troops like what he did. At least his troops didn't end up dead with their drawers down around their knees, peckers cut off and stuck in their mouths like the 507th's. I was glad to hear the guy plans to retire. Hope he gets a book deal and takes a giant crap on the army JAG corp.
257 posted on 12/10/2003 11:25:58 AM PST by ameribbean expat
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To: Jeff Head
First: I served 24 years in the US Army which includes 2 tours in NAM. My son is currently with the 1st Brigade Combat Team, 101st Abn. Thus I also have paid the price and, in a parental concern sense, am still paying the price.

Second: I expressed amusement solely at the construct of the reply and not the person to whom it was addressed.

258 posted on 12/10/2003 12:33:48 PM PST by verity
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To: verity
Thanks for the bonafides and thanks from my family to yours for every bit of that service...both yourself and your son.

Also, thanks for the clarification...no offense meant...just being sure.

259 posted on 12/10/2003 12:54:58 PM PST by Jeff Head
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To: Ispy4u
'Great news' for West in assault case


By Rowan Scarborough
THE WASHINGTON TIMES

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20031210-120854-8492r.htm


An Army hearing officer has recommended administrative punishment — but not a criminal court-martial — for Lt. Col. Allen B. West, who is charged with assault for firing a gun to scare a confession from an Iraqi detainee.

"It's extremely good news," said Neal Puckett, Col. West's attorney, who defended him at a pretrial hearing last month in one of Saddam Hussein's Tikrit palaces. "This is what we think the Army should have done from the very beginning."

Mr. Puckett quoted his client as saying, "Great news indeed."

The recommendation goes to Maj. Gen. Raymond Odierno, the 4th Infantry Division commander, who can accept it or reject it in favor of court-martialing Col. West or dismissing the charge.

Mr. Puckett said he was informed yesterday by the division's judge advocate that the hearing officer, Lt. Col. Jimmy Davis, recommended what is called Article 15 punishment, not a trial.

Under this procedure, Col. West would appear before Gen. Odierno. The general would be limited in his punishment options to a written reprimand, forfeiture of pay and confinement to quarters.

If court-martialed, Col. West would risk a military jury convicting him and dismissing him from the Army. A dismissal would mean losing a lifetime of retirement benefits for the married father of two children, who is based at Fort Hood, Texas.

Mr. Puckett said the staff judge advocate, who in practice is Gen. Odierno's chief legal adviser, told him the general would make a final decision as soon as possible. Mr. Puckett said he had not yet seen the hearing officer's written opinion.

The West case has been closely watched by pro-military groups and Army officers since its beginning.

Col. West worked in the Sunni Triangle, one of the most dangerous regions in Iraq, where soldiers face the daily threat of attacks from Saddam's followers.

Col. West admitted he broke Army rules Aug. 20, when he pulled an Iraqi detainee out of his cell, took him outside and fired two shots from his 9 mm pistol while threatening to kill him. Col. West had been told by an intelligence officer that the Iraqi, a police officer in the town of Saba al Boor, knew of an assassination plot against the colonel and his men.

After four others tried to get the Iraqi to talk, some hitting him, Col. West resorted to the threat out of desperation. Mr. Puckett said Col. West did not order the soldiers to hit the Iraqi, whom testimony showed was not badly hurt.

"I felt there was a threat to my soldiers. ... If it's about the life of my men, I'd go through hell with a gasoline can," Col. West testified at his Nov. 19 hearing in Tikrit.

"I love the Army," added the 20-year officer, as he sat erect on the witness stand, holding back tears.

"I know the method I used was not the right method," said the 42-year-old colonel. "If I had to err, I would err on the side of not losing my soldiers. ... There is not a man here I would not sacrifice my life for."

Col. West said from the start he was willing to subject himself to nonjudicial Article 15 punishment and then retire. Gen. Odierno has already relieved him of his command of an artillery battalion, a sure career killer.

Col. West has submitted a retirement request to the division commander. Ultimately, that decision rests with acting Army Secretary Les Brownlee. Mr. Brownlee may retire Col. West at his current rank, or determine he did not serve honorably and retire him at the reduced rank of major.

Mr. Puckett said the Tikrit hearing exposed a weakness in coalition interrogation techniques. He said released Iraqis promptly tell other Saddam loyalists that if taken into custody they do not have to talk.

"All of the intelligence witnesses regularly expressed the fact that detainees bragged they know they don't have to talk because we can't do anything to them," Mr. Puckett said. "The bad Iraqis are ID'd by human sources. The Iraqis who are ID'd as bad guys and questioned all know we can't touch them. We can't even so much as threaten them."



Maybe you should write the army and tell them that they understand as little about this as Andy Jackson and they should obey the law according to your dictates.

Your problem is that with your "the rules is the rules" mentality you are way out of your depth. First,you ignore context, i.e the application or applicability of a rule depends upon the facts. Second you ignore that there are a lot of other rules besides the rule that you are advocating at the moment, and perhaps some other rule prevails. Third, the rule is not as clear as you think the rule is. Forth, the duty of the senior commisioned officer presiding at the time is to try to decide amongst all of this what to do. He is not taking the law into his hands or acting outside the scope of his authority. Like it or not, he is the authority. The buck stops somewhere, and the weighty responsibility of accepting an officer's commission is that you have accepted that when the wheel stops spinning it may stop pointing at you.

To dodge clear responsibilities and point to a set of rules as an excuse for not doing your duty to protect your men or execute the mission is also a violation of the UCMJ, is inconsistent with conduct becoming an officer and is an action that reflects discredit upon the service.

But not holding an officer's commissions you would understand little about an officers responsibilities.

This is also political. Sadly the CG can kiss his next star good-bye. He won't be recommended because the senate will ask too many questions at the confirmation hearing.
260 posted on 12/10/2003 3:04:05 PM PST by AndyJackson
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