Army Right To Punish Lt. Col. West

Atlanta Journal-Constitution ^ | 8 Dec 2003 | Jay Bookman

[Ispy4u]

So do you want to debate or snipe?

I don't care either way, you'll lose.

[BSunday]

Looking at your home page, I need to thank YOU for YOUR service! You were in the real stuff, I only patrol around on submarines.

[BSunday]

I can debate if you want to. I have yet to see any coherent argument on your part, other than to doubt people's veracity or motives (mine included). Although you left me wondering when you posted another thread on this same topic a few minutes ago, making basically the same points. Why is that ?

[Mr. Mojo]

lol.....nice flamewar.

Btw, every single General and Colonel now working for FOX News as a military analyist (of which there are several) essentially has the same take on the matter -- that Colonel West acted as they themselves would've acted, and that court martialing him not only would play havoc with troop morale, but would also encourage the enemy.

Sometimes initiative is required in battlefield situations, and sometimes that necessarily requires breaking a reg or two. The Freepers who believe otherwise would've fit in very nicely in the Third Reich, where everything was done "by the book" at all times. ...."I was just following orders and regulations." ......One doesn't need to think on his feet. Thankfully most Americans are made of different stuff -- we can improvise when necessary.

[Ispy4u]

If I find an article on the net I will post it here if it doesn't already exist, in order to preserve the record.

Unlike DU we debate articles from both sides and this issue may very well have long term consequences for us in the military. URLs change and articles get moved to archives never to be seen again, but here they are preserved with value added by logical debate.

What I'm wondering about is why the conservative columnists and papers have all but dropped this issue. There are very few new articles about this, I suspect there will be a few when the CG makes his decision.

[BSunday]

The Freepers who believe otherwise would've fit in very nicely in the Third Reich, where everything was done "by the book" at all times. ...."I was just following orders and regulations."

Excellent point. It reminds me of a movie called "Equilibrium" where in an effort to avoid another war, humankind established a totalitarian/fascist society, the effects of which were exactly the same as continual war. My favorite line comes when one of the enforcers says "What good has this society done us", which was answered by his partner, words to the effect that "we have eliminated war and murder". The first guy then said "What is it you think that we do ?"

[Ispy4u]

They are working for Fox now and don't have to answer to the UCMJ. If they think it's so damn wrong why the hell didn't they fight to change those rules over the past two years. The POW/detainee rules for GWOT have been unchanged since Afghanistan post 9-11.

Battlefield initiative is very different from coercing information by threatening someones life. The guy was probably lying, it's been shown so many times that those techniques yield lies it's not even funny.

But to me the worst infraction is that he failed to set the proper example for his troops. Inexcusable IMO.

[BSunday]

PS I recommend that movie to all Freepers. It basically shows what happens when the "peace at all costs" people get their way.

[Mr. Mojo]

it's been shown so many times that those techniques yield lies it's not even funny.

Sometimes they yeild lies, and sometimes they don't. Yeah, there are undoubtedly much better techniques for getting info out of the enemy, but those techniques require something Col. West didn't have -- time.

But to me the worst infraction is that he failed to set the proper example for his troops.

Actually, he set a terrific example -- he showed that the lives of his men are infinitely more important than a few ridiculous regulations.

[Mr. Mojo]

Thanks for the movie tip. ......I'll check it out.

[BSunday]

PS wait til you see the gun kata....outstanding!

[Ispy4u]

So how much time did he have?

I haven't seen anything that proves he didn't have time, in fact the interrogation had been going on for at least several hours before he showed up. Did he have a day? Did he have a week? What friggin commander worth his weight can't think to employ mitigating countermeasures to the threat he faced?

I don't buy the "he didn't have time" line. It seems to me it wasn't imminent, if it was going to happen at all. After all the initial information may well have been a lie to bring trouble to the policeman.

[BSunday]

Is casting doubt on the character of others all you can do? You're starting to sound like a very annoying 8 track. Just admit you have no valid argument for the punishment of West except your desire to see a military guy punished.

[raybbr]

You can call it whatever you wish. What comes out from your posts is an intemperate desire to see West punished for his action.

My position is that I have no quarrel with his action. Whereas, you have tried, through several specious and hyperbolic arguements have attempted to persuade us that your vitriole in this matter makes sense.

[Ispy4u]

I've made valid points here. Just because you work on a boat and will probably never have to handle an EPW you probably don't think it's a big deal.

The Army takes many prisoners and the rules detailing their handling are based in law. Because I believe in the rule of law I can't agree with LTC West's actions. What ever his punishment is doesn't matter to me, but I will argue to next light that his actions don't make him a hero.

[Ispy4u]

Fine you support his action.

I want to see justice.

I don't care what the punishment is, or really even if he is completely acquitted as long as it is made clear that disobeying orders comes with consequences.

[Lucy Lake]

Thanks for the ping. BTW, I received a nice thank you note from Mrs. West. Thinking of the stress she must be under, this was a very gracious gesture and greatly appreciated. Class shows.

[BSunday]

That's funny, because I also happen to believe in the rule of law and I think his actions were entirely justified. To every rule there is an exception. Laws were not made to make us unthinking drones or slaves to government.

[raybbr]

I have been saying this all along and he just ignores that claim.

[Vets_Husband_and_Wife]

"I only patrol around on submarines".

Listen up.. we BOTH admire you immensely!!! I also want to thank you for directing me to my long neglected homepage! I just updated it! :o)

It is still a BOOK.. sigh. But there was some stuff I needed to add that is very current about Vietnam Vets getting the HepC virus from the airguns they used on us/them.

Plus, I added a tad to it. I know I know.. BUT.. I did put a warning at the top of the page about it BEING A BOOK!! LOL