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" Even Gaffney says that Grover's deal was a sideshow compared to the Muslim Outreach in the White House. And the White House does not appear to have been selecting a higher grade of Muslim than Norquist was."

1)
Actually the point of Gaffney and others who have written on it and have knowledge of it, is that the WH outreach was set up at grover's initiative and staffed by his placee from his org. They then used him as the supplier and vetter, just as they do on taxes. If he brings a guy in for taxes no one would think to question him, espcially not if he got them the job, are fiercely loyal to him, and he is making their job easier by doing the heavy lifting both above them (Rove) and under them (getting the bodies list).

Now, if someone who has spent their career watching taxes in some state comes along and says, "Hey. wait a minute, I know that Joe guy, he scuttled every tax cut we tried." -- the staffer will say, Hey. Grover knows more than you do so whatever you say, even if you have pictures, it doesn't matter and it can' tbe true. And if it was it must not be now b/c Grover wouldn't even think about hanging with such people. And anyway, what's your personal beef with the Joe guy anyway, you obviously had policy differences with him, so you should just shut up and go away."

2) People have, in public, by not just Rove, but the PRESIDENT, been handed their head for calling attention to the problem, notably, afor the 4th time in 2 days, I suggest the Al Arian junior and senior case.

As if that weren't enough, Yes, people on the NSC staff, at the level of Special Assistant to the President, have been told, have agreed fully, and have said: 'But, No one will want to go to Rove with this.' Some have gone to Rove and he has sent them off saying he is aware of the complaints or words to that effect. It has also been mentioned that the lawyer for the Holy Land Foundation (listed for terror and closed by the President in a Rose Garden address held for that very topic), George Salem, was also the head of Ara Americans for Bush and qurtermilllion dollar fundraiser, and the Solicitor of Labor under Bush one -- and that Karl rejects any dicussion of that topic and so "we don't want to go to him on this one." And neither will Condi.

Last,in this same vein: the same is true of Grover's donor and his successor as Islamic Insitute chairman, Talaat Othman. Othman is an old Bush family friend, so much so that he is invested for 17 % of W's oil company, Harken Energy, on behalf of his Saudi boss gigilionaire Sheikh Baksh. Othman was appointed to the Texas State Utilities commission, even though he lives in Illinois. Othman also gave the invocation at the GOP 2000 convention (the first Muslim at either Party's convention, and possibly at Grover's suggestion)

And, in another one of those darned coincidences, Othman just happens to be on the Board on at least one of Yaqub Mirza's investment funds (other Mirza funds you might have heard of include MENA Invesments, MarJac--both raided -- and a little thing called the Ptech Investment Fund, which funded, along with designated global terrorist Yasin Qadi, the software company Ptech raided and closed last year in Boston for a variety of terrorism charges. see endnote.) Now might it bother someone that this Othman guy joins the Board of a fund run by a terrorist finance wiz, who also funded Norquist buddy Al Arian and Grover's Institute (Institute took at least $46,000 before 9/11 from this source).

WH staff and others have expressly stated these relationships to be off bounds as issues to take to Rove, based on previous experience. Obviously, then, if one sits down with Rove and gets beyond the first couple of bullet points one then has, to sooner or later, raise these kinds of names connected to Grover (e.g. his Insitute's then-Chairman and donor). Some pretty serious people have had this experience to no good effect. Now if one of you just thinks this stinks and wants to walk into Rove's office and try, where veterans of many White Houses and DC battles have failed, be our guest.

endnote: For those who need a refresher, Mirza (one of the names on Grover's WH Muslim Outreach waiver list), is the chief financial officer of the SAAR Trust/SAFA group of entities raided by Operation Greenquest in the aforementioned largest terror-finance investigation by the US government anywhere in the world. (see Farah, et al, Washington Post) He funded Sami AlArian and the Islamic Institute and was an attendee of the Islamic Institute's "Islamic Banking" conference with Grover last Fall -- well after the raid and the April, 2002 Wall Street Journal article by Glenn Simpson which outlined some of the groups in question and linked Saffuri, Othman, Mirza and Barzingi (the strategist and effectively COO of the alleged terror financing network of entities raided) in an illustrative chart.

By the way, to Be very clear: I view the SAUDI problem, in all its scope, to be the ultimate problem, source of funds and the thing that garbles every line of communication involved -from the very top, through to Grover and across the panoply of individuals and groups mentioned in connection to the Islamist problem. A good example is the fact that SECSTATE, and Bush campaign guru, James Baker 111, represents the Saudi government and royal family defendants in the 911 victims' families lawsuit. For a primer, again, I suggest Dave Kaplan's USNEWS cover story. But none of that means what Grover has chosen to do is excusable, and is not his own responsibility and choice.

As if that weren't enough, Yes, people on the NSC staff, at the level of Special Assistant to the President, have been told, have agreed fully, and have said: 'But, No one will want to go to Rove with this.' Some have gone to Rove and he has sent them off saying he is aware of the complaints or words to that effect. It has also been mentioned that the lawyer for the Holy Land Foundation (listed for terror and closed by the President in a Rose Garden address held for that very topic), George Salem, was also the head of Ara Americans for Bush and qurtermilllion dollar fundraiser, and the Solicitor of Labor under Bush one -- and that Karl rejects any dicussion of that topic and so "we don't want to go to him on this one." And neither will Condi.

"Neither will Condi..." what?
She won't go to Rove, or won't listen to complaints?

Mirza (one of the names on Grover's WH Muslim Outreach waiver list), is the chief financial officer of the SAAR Trust/SAFA group of entities raided by Operation Greenquest in the aforementioned largest terror-finance investigation by the US government anywhere in the world. (see Farah, et al, Washington Post) He funded Sami AlArian and the Islamic Institute and was an attendee of the Islamic Institute's "Islamic Banking" conference with Grover last Fall -- well after the raid and the April, 2002 Wall Street Journal article by Glenn Simpson which outlined some of the groups in question and linked Saffuri, Othman, Mirza and Barzingi (the strategist and effectively COO of the alleged terror financing network of entities raided) in an illustrative chart.

Not sure this is the same Simpson article to which you're referring, from March 2002...
Funds Under Terror Probe Flowed From Offshore
By GLENN R. SIMPSON
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
WASHINGTON -- Large sums from two offshore financial havens flowed through the accounts of several U.S.-based companies and charities raided Wednesday by Treasury Department agents investigating terrorism financing, tax and corporate records show.
The flow of funds through Panama and the Channel Islands, both of which have strict bank secrecy laws, obscures both the origin and the destination of the money.
There is no evidence directly connecting those funds to terrorism, but corporate and bank records do show connections between the U.S. firms and some individuals and entities abroad that the U.S. Treasury already has designated as aiding terrorism. These include Al-Taqwa Management, a recently liquidated Swiss company the U.S. government believes acted as a banker for Osama bin Laden's al Qaeda terrorist network.
In this week's raids, agents sought financial information on a web of trusts, charities and for-profit companies affiliated with Virginia businessman M. Yaqub Mirza, according to a search warrant. The warrant indicates the government is investigating possible ties between these entities and several terrorists and terrorist groups, including Palestinian Islamic Jihad, Hamas, al Qaeda, Abdul Aziz Odeh, Omar Abdel Rahman and Osama bin Laden.
Calls Thursday to Mr. Mirza and his lawyer weren't returned. Iqbal Unus, an official of the Mirza-supported foundation International Institute of Islamic Thought, said Mr. Mirza hasn't committed any wrongdoing. "He's a very clean person," Mr. Unus said.
The SAAR Foundation Inc., a defunct Virginia nonprofit formerly run by Mr. Mirza that is at the heart of the probe, gave $9 million in 1998 to a Channel Islands entity called the Humana Charitable Trust, according to its tax return. Humana is based in the Isle of Man. SAAR in 1998 also reported a $231,000 debt to Key Overseas Inc., a Panamanian company.
Key Overseas and another Panamanian company, Solemagic SA, made $9 million in loans in 1990 to another Mirza company, Mar-Jac Poultry Inc., other records show. Mar-Jac is among the companies named in the Treasury Department search warrant.
Mar-Jac, SAAR and several other companies and charities operate or have operated out of more than a dozen homes and offices located near each other in northern Virginia, the records show.
Two people affiliated with the companies and charities are linked by records to entities already designated as terrorist by the U.S. government. Hisham Al-Talib, who served as an officer of SAAR, the International Institute of Islamic Thought and Safa Trust Inc., another Mirza charity, during the 1970s was an officer of firms run by Youssef M. Nada, records show. Mr. Nada is a Switzerland-based businessman whose assets have been frozen by the U.S. for alleged involvement in terrorist financing, and is alleged by U.S. officials to be a key figure in the Taqwa network. Mr. Nada denies wrongdoing.
There was no answer Thursday at the phone listed for Mr. Talib at his address in Herndon, Va.
Jamal Barzinji, an officer of Mr. Mirza's company Mar-Jac and other entities, also was involved with Mr. Nada's companies in the 1970s, according to bank documents from Liechtenstein. A message was left Thursday for Mr. Barzinji at his address in Herndon. Mr. Barzinji and Mr. Talib live across the street from each other.
A third business associate of Mr. Nada, Ali Ghaleb Himmat (who also has been designated by the Treasury aiding terrorism), is listed as an official of the Geneva branch of another charity operated by Mr. Mirza, the International Islamic Charitable Organization. Neither Ali Ghaleb Himmat nor the International Islamic Charitable Organization was named in the U.S. government's search warrant. Mr. Himmat couldn't be located for comment.
Muslim leaders from the Washington area condemned this week's raids and accused the government of targeting innocent Muslims in hopes of catching a few guilty ones. "This is a blatant harassment of Islamic institutions and families," said Shaker Elsayed, coordinator of the National Muslim Leadership Summit.
The Muslim leaders -- including several from organizations whose offices were searched by federal agents -- condemn terrorism and the killing of "innocent civilians," said Jason Erb, government affairs director for the Council on American-Islamic Relations. Mr. Erb called the raids a "fishing expedition" by law-enforcement agencies. "Those who have been targeted are very moderate voices," said Louay Safi, director of research at the International Institute of Islamic Thought, whose Herndon offices were raided. "It seems like the government is declaring open season on Muslims in America," said Abdulwahab Alkebsi, executive director of the Islamic Institute in Washington. The groups are considering what further steps to take and expect Muslim clerics nationwide to raise alarms with their congregations during weekly prayers Friday.
--Michael M. Phillips contributed to this article.
Write to Glenn R. Simpson at glenn.simpson@wsj.com
Updated March 22, 2002
Funds Under Terror Probe Flowed From Offshore
GLENN R. SIMPSON - Wall Street Journal | March 22nd, 2002

People have, in public, by not just Rove, but the PRESIDENT, been handed their head for calling attention to the problem

I see. And so now you must step in, because the President himself has the wrong policy. If Rove is taking his direction from the President, and Norquist is taking his from Rove, those two must be exposed, eliminated, and taken down, one by one, so that the President's policy cannot be carried out.

And this is under whose direction, sir? Your own?

That's pretty cheeky. It might also be insane. Or it could be the highest form of heroism. It might be difficult for us to sort that out.

Are you sure there isn't something going on here that's above your pay grade? It seems to me that we either believe that, or we believe that the President is in cahoots with Rove, Norquist, and the other traitors to hand the U.S. over to the bad guys. I mean, it's either that or you're a nut.