Cops accidentally kill 300 citizens annually

Columbia Chronicle ^ | 12.8.2003 | unknown

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Cops accidentally kill 300 citizens annually

Editorial: Nonlethal weapons a better approach

http://www.ccchronicle.com/back/2003-12-08/opinions2.html

Here lie the casualties of an epidemic that has been increasingly gripping American cities since the early part of 1990:

·Steven Curry, 21, shot and killed by an off-duty Chicago police officer, Nov. 25, 2003.

·Michael L. Jacobs, 37, shot and killed by a Shreveport, La. police officer, claiming self-defense, Dec. 2, 2003.

·Courtney Mathis, 12, shot and killed by a Cincinnati police officer, Sept. 1, 2001.

·Timothy Thomas, 19, shot and killed by off-duty Cincinnati police officers, April 7, 2001.

·Ahmed Diallo, 22, shot 41 times and killed by New York City police officers, Feb. 4, 1999.

·Robert Russ Sr., 22, was one of two unarmed civilians shot and killed by Chicago police in a single week, June 1999.

·Gonzalo Martinez, 26, shot and killed by Downey, Calif. police, Feb. 15, 2002.

·Nathanial Jones, 41, died after being beaten by Cincinnati police, Nov. 30, 2003.

These cases are only a small percentage of the more than 300 unarmed citizens killed each year by police officers who claim they had no other option than to use a service firearm or other means of lethal force.

“Other options,” however, to bring people under submission have been made available to various police departments across the country. In the western United States, there is a sweeping trend by police districts to adopt nonlethal weapons.

According to the San Diego Tribune, more than 1,200 policing agencies have begun using PepperBall guns.

The PepperBall Gun is a semi-automatic, high pressured-air launcher that fires balls containing the strongest, hottest pharmaceutical-grade irritant available.

In October, San Carlos, Calif., police began carrying taser guns, opposite their firearms. The taser sends 50,000 volts of electric shock into the nervous system, completely incapacitating a subject. Officials from the Phoenix Police Department began using taser guns in 2002.

Since its implementation, there has been a 50 percent decrease in the number of shootings by police officers. And in San Diego, where officer-involved shootings are among the highest in the country, police districts are retraining their officers in sensitivity and deployment of nonlethal weaponry.

Nationally, only 1,000 of the 18,000 police agencies currently supply nonlethal devices to officers based on a variety of poor reasons. Major cities of the Midwest and Atlantic regions argue they are sticking to their guns, no pun intended, due to tight city budgets, the lack of training and most importantly, doubt.

Its troubling when the use of nonlethal weapons becomes an oxymoron for police in cities such as: Atlanta, Boston, Chicago, Detroit, Indianapolis, Los Angeles, Minneapolis, New Orleans, New York, Philadelphia, Portland, Providence, San Francisco and Washington, D.C., where police-involved deaths continue to rise. It seems those sworn to protect and serve are ignoring a proven remedy.

According to a 2002 Associated Press report, a majority of U.S. law enforcement agencies do carry Mace or pepper spray. But officers believe the chemical aerosols don’t pack enough punch to subdue suspected criminals. So, are police trained to believe that the only alternative is to shoot or pound the culprit to death?

Part of the problem lies in the lack of training in defensive tactics and nonlethal artillery. Officers often reach for their holsters because training goes out the door during challenging confrontations. Police must be properly educated in understanding how to best handle all situations. But perhaps the ultimate cure is in the eradication of police officers who sidestep proper training practices. In any other profession, the incompetent are let go. Unfortunately, in law enforcement, someone has to die before incompetence is realized.

[eno_]

...busy-body libertarians...

Yeah. The headquarters of the busybody libertarians is right around the corner from the historic old site of the afro american hockey league.

[FreedomPoster]

>>All at once, that can hardly be an accidental discharge!

Thank you! I got a letter printed in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution explaining the concept of "negligent discharge", and why one of the two cops in the Gwinnett County evidence locker was guilty of causing an ND, when the second cop was wounded "when the gun went off by accident".

Some use the term "unintended discharge", which is OK, I suppose, but seems too non-judgemental / politically correct to my ear. But "accidental discharge" just sets my teeth on edge. There are very few ADs, and really almost zero with modern firearms.

I heartily encourage the use of the term "negligent discharge".

[connectthedots]

I also doubt the numbers. I recall another thread where the number of unjustified shootings by police per year was give as about 30, or 10% of the above figure.

Depends of who is making the determination. You think prosecutors and internal affairs officers are going to make an honest determination? In most cases determinations of unjustified police shootings are made in cases where even they would be embarassed to conclude otherwise; and they don't embarass easily.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

I also doubt the numbers. I recall another thread where the number of unjustified shootings by police per year was give as about 30, or 10% of the above figure.
Depends of who is making the determination. You think prosecutors and internal affairs officers are going to make an honest determination? In most cases determinations of unjustified police shootings are made in cases where even they would be embarassed to conclude otherwise; and they don't embarass easily.

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I have been trying to confirm also. I think the 300 was over a ten year period, and the 30 number was the number killed by CCW over a ten year period. So the ten to one ratio remains of cops vs CCW carry..

[CHICAGOFARMER]

In the old days a revolver was carried with the hammer on a blank chamber.

you are aware, of course that the reason behind that was to avoid accidental discharges if the hammer was struck, aren't you? And you certainly must be aware that the overwhelming majority of modern duty DA revolvers incorporate a transfer bar to preclude such a thing happening, right?

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I am very aware of the new transfer bar and the funciton of the bar.

The real issue is the change in the attitide of those departments changing from peace officer who kept the peace to swat entry was innocents killed for wrong reasons, police drawn downs of felony stops with guns pointed.

Remember an innocent citizen life is worth less than a police office.


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This policy by police departments to always have a bullet in the pipe if you are in law enforcement is WRONG. Hmm...on the one hand we have chuck taylor, massaad ayoob, john farnam, clint smith, Col. cooper, Ken Hackathorn, and Lous Auerbach.(sp?) on the other we have; CHICAGOARMER.

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Would it nice to have these names behind the weapon, not some of our current LEO in uniform pointing a gun at you. Who would you rather have a gun pointed at you, chuck taylor, massaad ayoob, john farnam, clint smith, Col. cooper, Ken Hackathorn, and Lous Auerbach.(sp?) OR some rookie cop who has fired less than 1000 rounds and has a badge? Or an LEO with years who does not practice? Perhaps you should read some of the earlier threads.

My intent was to raise the issue in the response to this newspaper article, Has their been a change in the attitude of the LEO's department porcedure and policy to shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop or wound.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

You may or may not be right about the current caliber of LEOs- I don't have enough knowledge to make a comment. But given what appears to me to be an abysmal lack of understanding re: firearms...I do not take your analysis very seriously.


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In the past two years how many rounds have you fired??

I have researched extensively wound ballastics, crime statistics, and as an observer department policy over the years. I am actively involved in 2nd amendment cases both at the national level and at the the local level. I am very familiar with body armor and the effects of gun shot to body armor.

Perhap a reread of the responses would enlighten the width of this discussion.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

It all comes down to training. I was a deputy sheriff in New Mexico back in the late seventies. While it is true that back in the 1880's most individuals carrying a single action revolver had the hammer on an empty chamber(thereby making their 6 shooter a five shooter),in the late 20th Century, most cops carrying a double-action 6 shot revolver had 6 rounds in it. I was taught keep your finger off the trigger until your ready to shoot. Sometimes in plainclothes I carried a Colt .45 Auto or a Browning P35 9mm. They were carried in condition one (round in the chamber,cocked and locked). That was the way they were designed to be carried.
You DO NOT give the trigger a light pull on a duty gun. The Glock which is a standard gun throughout the U.S. comes with a standard 5 lb pull. NYPD got them to increase the tension on theirs to 8 lbs, known as the New York trigger. Then Glock also offered the option of a New York plus trigger of 12 lbs.
Probably 75%+ of negligent discharges are due to individuals with no background in firearms. 100% of them are due to negligence. My daughter was a GM/G (Gunner's Mate/Guns) in the Navy. When I went to her graduation at Great Lakes, the First Class that was her instructor could not say enough good things about her. He recognised she had been around weapons a good deal before her first weapons class at Great Lakes. Her marksmanship was noted by the seal team assigned to her ship. She has never had a ND because she is paranoid about safety.
Guns fire for a reason, someone pulled the trigger.
I see the problem as a training problem. Better more intense training and a chnge in the mindset of the majority of cops would make a difference. By the way you don't shoot to kill, you shoot to stop. That Lone Ranger bullsh#t of shooting to wound looked great at the movies and on TV, but as myself, Squantos, and a few other ex Peace Officers can tell you, it's bogus.
I recognise one other thing, the unloaded auto pistol chamber you are describing is advocated by the Israelis. Believe me them chambers is loaded when they are expecting trouble, Massad aint stupid. Good post by the way it should generate a lot of comments


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Thanks for the comments.

You are very accurate in your written comments. I agree with everyone of them.

It is great to hear that you daughter has been taught well, you should be proud. I would be. My daughter has the same mind set, but not anywhere as proficient as yours.


I agree with you do not lighten your trigger on your duty gun. But with 450,000 LEO's can we be sure some have not got the message?

I am not a chicago anti gun supporter, however, the two innocent victims in 1999 were pulled over for a traffic stop and for some reason they perhaps refused to follow commands and the young rookie cop pulled her weapon and ask the passinger to exit the vehicle and in her hand was a cell phone. It cost the city 10 million. The second victim a Northwestern football scholarship player won 5 million for a traffic stop.

My point is discussion of the issue and I sure would not want to be in the hands of a rookie cop in the above situation.

Nice post have a good day.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Drug War Toll from Police Shootings Continues to Rise -- How Many Dead? Nobody Knows Because Congress Doesn't Care 10/20/00
On Wednesday, September 13th, a Modesto, California SWAT team officer executing a federal search warrant in a methamphetamine investigation shot and killed 11-year-old Alberto Sepulveda. The youngster died in a pool of blood on his bedroom floor after being hit in the back with a shotgun blast from veteran officer David Hawn. The California Attorney General's office is investigating, but if past police shootings are any indication, the police shooter will walk free.

In the wake of a rash of widely publicized police killings in the 1990s, public anger and apprehension has mounted. But while the overall number of police killings is recorded annually, there are no national figures on police killings in the drug war. DRCNet has, however, found disturbing patterns in reports of those killings it has been able to survey.

Young Sepulveda, sadly, is not the only or even the latest unarguably innocent person to be killed by police enforcing the drug laws. (Let us be clear here: The victims of these police killings are dead regardless of whether or not they were involved in drug law violations, and even someone who may have committed a drug crime deserves a day in court, not summary execution by trigger-happy police.) Here are a few recent examples of both innocents and suspects killed at the hands of police:

September, 1999: Denver SWAT team members shoot and kill 45-year-old Ismael Mena, a father of nine, after he attempted to defend himself and his family from the unannounced, masked intruders who broke down his bedroom door as he slept. The SWAT team was carrying out a no-knock raid, but had the wrong address on their search warrant. Mena was shot eight times and died on the spot after he fired one shot from a .22 caliber pistol. No drugs were found at the house. The city of Denver paid $400,000 to settle a lawsuit with the Mena family. The officer in charge of the raid pled guilty this month to a perjury charge pertaining to his affidavit seeking the search warrant. In February, a Denver grand jury cleared that officer and two other police shooters of any other wrongdoing.
January, 2000: An Arlington, Texas police officer shoots and kills 48-year-old Raymond J. Sanchez during a methamphetamine bust. Police alleged that Sanchez tried to run them over while fleeing after his passenger was arrested. The father of four died in a Kwik Wash parking lot after being shot one time. In May, an Arlington grand jury cleared the police shooter of any wrongdoing.
March, 2000: A New York City police officer shoots and kills Patrick Dorismond, the fourth unarmed black man killed by the city's police in little more than a year. Undercover police accosted Dorismond, a 24-year-old security guard, as he and a friend hailed a cab. In what police described as a "buy and bust" operation in which they approach strangers on the steet and ask them for drugs, Dorismond angrily rejected the undercover agents' request and the dispute escalated into a scuffle. Dorismond was shot once in the chest and died within minutes. In a sign of intense community anger at Dorismond's and other killings, 23 officers and five civilians were injured in a melee at his funeral. In July, a New York grand jury cleared the police shooter of any wrongdoing.
June, 2000: A suburban St. Louis detective and a DEA agent, acting as members of a multi-agency drug task force, shoot and kill two 36-year-old black men, Earl Murray and Ronald Beasley, in their vehicle in the parking lot of a busy suburban Jack in the Box restaurant. The police were attempting to arrest Murray for allegedly selling rocks of crack cocaine to undercover officers on two previous occasions. Police said they shot the two after Murray, the driver, attempted to flee. Police said they feared that Murray would run them down. No weapons were found in the vehicle. Beasley, the passenger, was not a target of the bust. Police described his death as "unintended, but not a mistake." In August, a St. Louis County grand jury cleared the police shooters of any wrongdoing.
October, 2000: Two Lebanon, Tennessee police officers executing a search warrant for the wrong house shoot and kill John Adams, 64, in his living room. According to Adams' wife, Loriane, police repeatedly refused to identify themselves as they banged on the door, then broke the door down, handcuffed her, and shot her husband several times. Police claim he shot at them with a sawed off shotgun. Loraine Adams says this is not so. The Tennessee Bureau of Investigation is investigating.
These are only a sampling of recent victims of police violence in the drug war from data provided to DRCNet by the Media Awareness Project (http://www.mapinc.org), a web-based archive of drug policy-related news stories. According to the MAP's Tom O'Connell, who did the archival digging, their partial and preliminary data show at least 60 people shot by police enforcing drug laws in recent years.
"That is the minimum. These are by no means comprehensive statistics," O'Connell explained. "These are only the cases that have been posted to our news archives. We do not catch everything, for a couple of reasons. First, we rely on our 'newshawks' to bring articles to our attention, so articles that may get only local or regional play might be missed. And don't forget that as we grow stronger, we have more 'newshawks' than in earlier years, so those early years are probably underreported there as well."

"Second," continued O'Connell, "it has not been our policy at the Media Awareness Project to post every drug bust or incident. We would be overwhelmed. We have concentrated on policy-related stories, so again this has caused us to miss some."

Even with the limited data available, some disturbing but predictable patterns emerge. In cases where race of the victim could be determined, blacks were most often the victims, followed by Hispanics, with only a small minority of white victims. (Interestingly, the only two cases where the victims shot at police were two white pot-farmers in separate incidents in Oregon. One was shot and killed; the other was shot and paralyzed and later committed suicide in jail.)

"We also looked at whether the person was armed," said O'Connell, "and in many cases, the only 'weapon' the victims had was the vehicle in which they were trying to escape."

MAP is not alone in sounding the alarm about drug-related police shootings.

Joseph McNamara, former police chief in Kansas City and San Jose and currently a fellow at Stanford University's Hoover Institute, told DRCNet, "These shootings are a major cost of the drug war."

"This is a real ethical issue," said McNamara, "and evidence of the kind of callousness abroad in the land. It results from the emotionalism surrounding drugs and the whole war mentality that goes along with it. Things happen in war that we would not excuse in a civilized society."

McNamara, whose book on policing in the drug war, "Gangster Cops: The Hidden Cost of America's War on Drugs," will be published soon, predicts more fatalities. "These shootings are inevitable," he explained. "Police are doing military operations in drug raids, not because dealers are anxious to shoot it out, but because dealers are armed to avoid being robbed."

Timothy Lynch directs the criminal justice project at the Cato Institute, a libertarian-leaning think tank that opposes the war on drugs. For Lynch, paramilitarized policing is a key factor in the high number of police shootings.

"We should arrest the trend of militarizing police tactics," Lynch told DRCNet. "Congress has encouraged cops to create paramilitary units -- all those SWAT teams -- by giving away surplus military hardware and encouraging the bad trend of cops emulating military special forces."

"Once these paramilitary units are created," Lynch continued, "they apply military tactics to executing search warrants. This leads to unnecessary shootings and killings."

"And there is the problem of mission creep," he told DRCNet. "When these SWAT teams are first created, they have specific missions -- hostage situations, for example -- but over time, after they've invested all this money and training, these units start to get involved in non-emergency situations, such as executing arrest and search warrants. Constitutional rights get trampled, people get killed."

"The police are caught up in drug war rhetoric," said Lynch. "When police adopt the mindset of going after the enemy, there's an insensitivity to respecting constitutional rights. This increases the likelihood that unnecessary violence will occur."

McNamara also pointed to police hoping to profit from the drug war via asset forfeitures as a contributing factor. "Many of these shootings occur during the execution of arrest or search warrants," he told DRCNet, "and sometimes police search warrant decisions are influenced by the desire to get the loot."

"If there is enough evidence to obtain the warrant, why don't they arrest the guy when he leaves the house so innocent people are not endangered?," asked the former chief. "It's because they want the cash, the dope, the goods. Law enforcement is addicted to seizure money."

Despite the data collection problems cited by O'Connell, the Media Awareness Project's numbers are actually some of the best available on drug enforcement-related police shootings. The responsibility for the paucity of data lies squarely with the political class. As a sop to liberals concerned about police abuse of force, one section of the Violent Crime Control and Law Enforcement Act of 1994 ordered the Department of Justice to acquire data and issue annual reports on the use of excessive force by law enforcement officers.

Congress, however, only funded a preliminary project for two years. That effort, carried out by the International Association of Chiefs of Police (IACP -- http://www.theiacp.org), resulted in a National Use of Force Database. But since 1998, Congress has refused to appropriate funds for the project. The Bureau of Justice Statistics, which is in charge of the effort, has not issued a report since June, 1998. In its final word on the subject, the Bureau wrote, "because funding was specifically requested to fulfill the... mandate for annual data collection on the police use of excessive force, but was not provided, it is unclear whether the pilot efforts can be continued."

Because of lack of funding and because law enforcement agencies participate only if they choose to -- the IACP says only 319 agencies out of at least 2500 participate -- the database has extremely limited utility at this point. The database lists, for example, a total of six police killing for the years 1997-98, far fewer than even MAP was able to uncover.

The Bureau of Justice Statistics also produced one preliminary study, a report on the prevalence of police use of force. While it does not provide a breakdown for drug-related incidents, it does provide a startling estimate of the extent of police violence. The Census Bureau in 1996 surveyed a sample of some 6,000 citizens on their interactions with police, and extrapolating from those interviews, the Bureau of Justice Statistics estimated that some "500,000 persons (0.2% of the population age 12 or older) were hit, held, pushed, choked, threatened with a flashlight, restrained by a police dog, threatened or actually sprayed with chemical or pepper spray, threatened with a gun, or experienced some other form of force. Of the 500,000, about 400,000 were also handcuffed." (The report is online at http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/abstract/puof.htm.)

For obvious reasons, the survey contained no interviews with victims of fatal police shootings.

While the study's authors noted that the sample was to small for reliable estimates, they did find racial differences in line with other recent studies of racial disparities in the administration of criminal justice in general and in drug law enforcement in particular. Less than 1% of whites who reported contact with police reported police threat or use of force; for blacks that figure was 2.1% and for Hispanics 5.4%.

The standard measure for police shootings, the FBI's annual Uniform Crime Reports, shows what it calls justified homicides by law enforcement, but does not break down the aggregate numbers by type of offense. The 1999 report shows total law enforcement killings hovering at more than 300 annually throughout the decade, before dropping to 294 last year. (The UCR is available online at http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/99cius.htm.)

Lynch said that regardless of the lack of hard numbers on drug-related police shootings, he knows where the problem lies. "The war on drugs is the leading cause of police shootings," he said flatly. "When you look at the percentage of search warrants being executed, most of them are for drug activity. When there is either a mistaken shooting or violence between homeowners and police, it is usually drug enforcement. If you're looking at innocent people being killed, it is usually in a drug raid context.

McNamara gives credit where credit is due. "Police are doing an excellent job of reducing shootings," he said, "except for drug shootings."

For McNamara, the bottom line is protecting human life. "Police officers are not soldiers but peace officers, whose duty is to protect human life. We've lost sight of the basic mission of police, which is to protect human life, not make drug arrests. When we set priorities and they conflict, protection of human life should take precedent, not the desire to seize drugs."

MAP's Mark Greer is frustrated. "This is a story crying out to be written," he told DRCNet. "We hope a good investigative reporter could pull all this together for a nationwide expose of not only the number of innocents murdered, but also the racial breakdown, and how consistently people are being killed in drug enforcement because they 'attacked the officer with his car.'"

Is there a reporter in the house?

(Check out a nice sampling of McNamara's writings and work at http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/debate/mcn/mcntoc.htm and http://www.drcnet.org/cops/ on our web sites.)

[CHICAGOFARMER]

I think I just found a reliable table for 300 police killings annually. All are justifiable homicides

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_99/w99tbl2-16.xls

Here is a reliable for privite citizens for 286 killings.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/Cius_99/w99tbl2-17.xls

This proved that Freeprs can ferrot out the true in any newpaper story and identify the anti gun spin.

[Skywalk]

Hm, interesting feedback that you received from the psych evaluator.

I was in the selection process for Seattle PD, but I was rated as "deceptive" on two questions on my polygraph when not only was I telling the truth, but I had told them every possible detail I could think of, to avoid misleading readings. But then, I'm reminded that killers have passed polygraphs and innocent men have failed them.

Meanwhile, in PDs all over the country corrupt cops and jackboots who passed their polygraphs are brining shame to their departments. A simply background investigation(which they would have to conduct anyway) would reveal how truthful I was being and what people think of my character--but that would be too difficult.

I also was offended by questions in the earlier stages about whether I owned firearms and "assault weapons," specifically. They didn't ask me if I owned a car or a small-town newspaper or attended church.

[Skywalk]

How about cutting out the personal attacks, CJ?

Porterville made a statement that is easily understood about seeing his brother's fellow cops. You saying he had a traumatic potty training experience or was beaten up by his brother is yet another example of why you are a gigantic jackass.

[Skywalk]

Cops aren't supposed to shoot if you RUN. They're only supposed to shoot to preserve life and stop a threat.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Some use the term "unintended discharge", which is OK, I suppose, but seems too non-judgemental / politically correct to my ear. But "accidental discharge" just sets my teeth on edge. There are very few ADs, and really almost zero with modern firearms.

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I am with you an "accidential discharge" means someone screwed up.

[FreedomPoster]

To many people not knowledgeable with firearms, "accident" implies "the gun went off". You and I both know that pretty much doesn't happen, but John Q. Public watching Monday Night Football doesn't know that, and Janet Public almost certainly doesn't. That why I favor the "negligent discharge" term so much; it makes it obvious that a someone is at fault.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

To many people not knowledgeable with firearms, "accident" implies "the gun went off". You and I both know that pretty much doesn't happen, but John Q. Public watching Monday Night Football doesn't know that, and Janet Public almost certainly doesn't. That why I favor the "negligent discharge" term so much; it makes it obvious that a someone is at fault.


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I continue to see at the firing range, careless handling techniques and safety issues. When you know safe handling, you know when you see unsafe handling.

My priarie dog hunting buddies i trust. I have fired 14000 rounds in two summers and they as much. In our group we have fired 100,000 rounds in two summers. We practice safety safety safety all the time.

[FreedomPoster]

I'll leave a range and/or report someone to the rangemaster in a heartbeat, if I see stupid handling going on.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

I'll leave a range and/or report someone to the rangemaster in a heartbeat, if I see stupid handling going on.

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I am on the same page. We watch thru the window from outside.

[fourdeuce82d]

The real issue is the change in the attitide of those departments changing from peace officer who kept the peace to swat entry was innocents killed for wrong reasons, police drawn downs of felony stops with guns pointed.

Then the (in my mind) ill-informed comments regarding how weapons should or should not be carried are not germane to the discussion- the issue is breaking rules 2&3 by LEOs (which is a very real issue in my mind).

Who would you rather have a gun pointed at you, chuck taylor, massaad ayoob, john farnam, clint smith, Col. cooper, Ken Hackathorn, and Lous Auerbach.(sp?) OR some rookie cop who has fired less than 1000 rounds and has a badge? Or an LEO with years who does not practice?

None of the above, so I make a point of not doing things that attract the attention of the police, and plan to follow their instructions in the event I do.

"...policy to shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop or wound."

Show me one agency that has a "shoot to kill" policy. Show me one reputable trainer that suggests "shooting to wound" is a good or even non-demented policy.

In the past two years how many rounds have you fired??

Not that it matters, but I would guesstimate ~20k plus. Usually go through four or five cases of .45 in the summer, significantly less in the winter, a little less spring/fall. 9mm, .38, .40 significantly less- at a guess 500 of each/year.

But then again, this issue at hand is not my proficiency, rather it is the appropriateness of your suggestions, and what that suggests about your credibility regarding law enforcement procedures in general.

I have researched extensively wound ballastics, crime statistics, and as an observer department policy over the years. I am actively involved in 2nd amendment cases both at the national level and at the the local level. I am very familiar with body armor and the effects of gun shot to body armor.

Then you might want to review your research prodcedures, or at least broaden your areas of research to include procedures for carrying and using a handgun in a tactical or defensive situation.

If we want to discuss the training of LEOs, or their proper relationship to civilians, or lethal force guidelines, fine.

Suggesting LEOs should carry revolvers w/the hammer down on an empty chamber, or should carry in condition Three aren't really relevant to those topics...and suggesting LE agencies have a "shoot to kill" policy which should be changed to a "shoot to wound" policy is even more bizarre.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

"...policy to shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop or wound."

Show me one agency that has a "shoot to kill" policy. Show me one reputable trainer that suggests "shooting to wound" is a good or even non-demented policy.


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As you know it is policially incorrect to "shoot to kill". We can use it here on freepr for a change in attitude in LEO mindset. The issue is the change in the mentality of the street stop, the policies and procedures that have been enhansed to extreme levels for officer protection, but not for the protection of the citizen. All you have to do to see this change is reread the postings from former LEO's and others.


A drawn gun with a bead to the side of the intended victim in case of an accidental firing is called for in many guns drawn situations. Looking down the sighted barrel of a handgun limits your ability to assess the situation and to see other important issues which would tell the officer this is a non threating issue.

Perhaps most have a little fear when the blue lights it can be a testy situtation depending upon the training level of the LEO.

[CHICAGOFARMER]

Then you might want to review your research prodcedures, or at least broaden your areas of research to include procedures for carrying and using a handgun in a tactical or defensive situation.

Response: Regarding the tactical side of firearms and self defense, have engaged in massaad ayoob self defense tactical shooting and several local self defense shooting classes.

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If we want to discuss the training of LEOs, or their proper relationship to civilians, or lethal force guidelines, fine.

Response: I think you agree with my initial intent that we need to discuss and we need to encourage change in the procedures and the policies and the training level and equipment used when police engage citizens with drawn guns.

This discussion in our city regarding force guidelines is an ongoing effort. The citizens on the street however, have noticed over the years a change in the attitude of the LEO's both in voice commands, making judgements regarding when to arrest and when not too. Rememeber my initial question was thier is a difference between a peaace officer and a law enforcement officer. The Peace officer keeps the peace by sending or taking the neighbor home safely. Today the LEO's enforce the law, good law or bad law, meeting objective for ticket level, revenue stream forecasts regardless.

I would agree that a difference exists between the old rural neighorhoods, and today's Los Angeles urban street gangs. My point again, the LA gang traffic stop is not needed in many thousands of communities, but the PC idea that I need the same sqat team equipment, (It is the size of the toys) as the LA swats just sends the wrong message.

enought.


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