Replies

The real issue is the change in the attitide of those departments changing from peace officer who kept the peace to swat entry was innocents killed for wrong reasons, police drawn downs of felony stops with guns pointed.

Then the (in my mind) ill-informed comments regarding how weapons should or should not be carried are not germane to the discussion- the issue is breaking rules 2&3 by LEOs (which is a very real issue in my mind).

Who would you rather have a gun pointed at you, chuck taylor, massaad ayoob, john farnam, clint smith, Col. cooper, Ken Hackathorn, and Lous Auerbach.(sp?) OR some rookie cop who has fired less than 1000 rounds and has a badge? Or an LEO with years who does not practice?

None of the above, so I make a point of not doing things that attract the attention of the police, and plan to follow their instructions in the event I do.

"...policy to shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop or wound."

Show me one agency that has a "shoot to kill" policy. Show me one reputable trainer that suggests "shooting to wound" is a good or even non-demented policy.

In the past two years how many rounds have you fired??

Not that it matters, but I would guesstimate ~20k plus. Usually go through four or five cases of .45 in the summer, significantly less in the winter, a little less spring/fall. 9mm, .38, .40 significantly less- at a guess 500 of each/year.

But then again, this issue at hand is not my proficiency, rather it is the appropriateness of your suggestions, and what that suggests about your credibility regarding law enforcement procedures in general.

I have researched extensively wound ballastics, crime statistics, and as an observer department policy over the years. I am actively involved in 2nd amendment cases both at the national level and at the the local level. I am very familiar with body armor and the effects of gun shot to body armor.

Then you might want to review your research prodcedures, or at least broaden your areas of research to include procedures for carrying and using a handgun in a tactical or defensive situation.

If we want to discuss the training of LEOs, or their proper relationship to civilians, or lethal force guidelines, fine.

Suggesting LEOs should carry revolvers w/the hammer down on an empty chamber, or should carry in condition Three aren't really relevant to those topics...and suggesting LE agencies have a "shoot to kill" policy which should be changed to a "shoot to wound" policy is even more bizarre.

"...policy to shoot to kill rather than shoot to stop or wound."

Show me one agency that has a "shoot to kill" policy. Show me one reputable trainer that suggests "shooting to wound" is a good or even non-demented policy.

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As you know it is policially incorrect to "shoot to kill". We can use it here on freepr for a change in attitude in LEO mindset. The issue is the change in the mentality of the street stop, the policies and procedures that have been enhansed to extreme levels for officer protection, but not for the protection of the citizen. All you have to do to see this change is reread the postings from former LEO's and others.

A drawn gun with a bead to the side of the intended victim in case of an accidental firing is called for in many guns drawn situations. Looking down the sighted barrel of a handgun limits your ability to assess the situation and to see other important issues which would tell the officer this is a non threating issue.

Perhaps most have a little fear when the blue lights it can be a testy situtation depending upon the training level of the LEO.

Then you might want to review your research prodcedures, or at least broaden your areas of research to include procedures for carrying and using a handgun in a tactical or defensive situation.

Response: Regarding the tactical side of firearms and self defense, have engaged in massaad ayoob self defense tactical shooting and several local self defense shooting classes.

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If we want to discuss the training of LEOs, or their proper relationship to civilians, or lethal force guidelines, fine.

Response: I think you agree with my initial intent that we need to discuss and we need to encourage change in the procedures and the policies and the training level and equipment used when police engage citizens with drawn guns.

This discussion in our city regarding force guidelines is an ongoing effort. The citizens on the street however, have noticed over the years a change in the attitude of the LEO's both in voice commands, making judgements regarding when to arrest and when not too. Rememeber my initial question was thier is a difference between a peaace officer and a law enforcement officer. The Peace officer keeps the peace by sending or taking the neighbor home safely. Today the LEO's enforce the law, good law or bad law, meeting objective for ticket level, revenue stream forecasts regardless.

I would agree that a difference exists between the old rural neighorhoods, and today's Los Angeles urban street gangs. My point again, the LA gang traffic stop is not needed in many thousands of communities, but the PC idea that I need the same sqat team equipment, (It is the size of the toys) as the LA swats just sends the wrong message.

enought.

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