His 15 minutes of fame long gone, Elian celebrates another birthday

Seattle Post-Intelligencer ^ | 12/07/03 | Scott Holleran

[MitchellC]

I asked whether you would return abused children to their abusive parents not because I thought Elian was abused by his parents, but to raise the point that family members sometimes should be "broken apart."

So answer the question. Should all abused children be returned to their parents, and if no, why not? Do parents have ultimate authority over children regardless of how they use that authority? If not, on what grounds are interventions warranted?

[Doe Eyes]

Just out of curiously, do you think Elian's father should have gotten custody of his son?

[pcx99]

So answer the question. Should all abused children be returned to their parents, and if no, why not? Do parents have ultimate authority over children regardless of how they use that authority? If not, on what grounds are interventions warranted?

No obviously where a child is abused sexually, physically -- the state has an obligation to seperate the child from his/her parents. Otherwise yes, parents have ultimate autority over children regardless of how they use that authority.

There is no way to argue that the state has the right to seperate a child from his parents where there is no physical or sexual abuse. And especially not over anything as trivial as politics.

As a point of fact, every followup story on Elian I've seen or read has indicated that he's grown up pretty happy and healthy, maybe for no other reason than for propaganda purposes but there's also no way to argue that sending Elian back constituted abuse.

[MitchellC]

Does effectively living your life at the point of a gun constitute abuse in your opinion?

[Zack Nguyen]

Family most assuredly did not win out over poltiics and government. If you think that Elian is under the care, protection, and guidance of his father, you are wrong. Elian is a property of the state. He is a slave. Elian's mother died that her son would live free. His father, under the direct control of the Cuba state (it was obvious - he went nowhere without Castro's officials in public), got his son back. And the tragedy is, he got him back using the government police of the land of the free. Castro must have sat back and laughed hysterically.

[KantianBurke]

Re post #43, you're incorrect. The author points out that if Reno and Bubba had put as much attention to the 9-11 terrorists who were hanging out in Florida during the Elian saga perhaps that attack could have been avoided. Hence your accusation of hyperbole is wrong.

[Zack Nguyen]

I haven't forgotten.

[sinkspur]

Hence your accusation of hyperbole is wrong.

The poster said nothing about 9/11...you hypothesized on that.

Hence, my accusation of hyperbole is my opinion, with which you disagree.

[Ditter]

Have you forgotten Elians father left the rest of his family in Cuba when he came here? You think he was free to say & do any thing he wanted while in the US? You are a fool if you do think that.

[AnnaZ]

When Elian and his mother left Cuba for America, his dad -- happily remarried with new offspring -- called the Miami family to make sure they knew they were coming.

 

Elian stayed with them for months before his dad decided he "wanted him back".

 

In the meantime, on the island to the south, the stories of the ordeal and rescue began to take on mythical proportions -- the child, still afloat after the sinking of the boat because of the prayers and ultimate sacrifice of his mother, protected by dolphins until, on the third day, he was plucked up by the fisherman on Thanksgiving. Ahhhh... El Salvador de Cuba, the one to come back and save them from the tyrant.

 

Castro didn't like that.

 

So he took control of the Gonzalez family while the CRBs at the NCC paid for the (Clinton) lawyers to save their Papa Fidel's reputation.

 

Daddy was flown into the US -- stopped in Florida but didn't go to visit his relatives or his son -- but was, instead, immediately flown to D.C. and then whisked away to Cuban property while his mom relaxed under house arrest in Havana.

 

Sorry, "pcx99", but the whole incident still, to put it mildly, sickens me. And I consider supporters of his return to Cuba to be snoozers. Please don't take that personally.

[SupplySider]

I may have missed it, but I don't think you have tried to rebutt the main argument against your position, namely, that there is no reason to believe Elian's father wanted Elian to return with him.

[ml/nj]

Just out of curiously, do you think Elian's father should have gotten custody of his son?

Only if he (the father) remained in the United States.

ML/NJ

[sharkhawk]

It's not true that the US always gives parental rights in cases like this. In Chicago in the 1980's there was a Ukrainian Boy who was allowed to stay (Walter something) while his case went through the courts. The problem with the Elian case, besides the fact that the Clinton Justice Dept had no warrant to invade the house, is that the courts will still deciding the issue. The Govt knew where Elian was, no was no chance of him going anywhere, however by taking him back to Cuba, there was no chance to get him back, even if the relatives won the court case.

[exit82]

Zack, a very good analysis. I agree with you.

There was NEVER a need for armed goons of the US government to storm into a house and take a small child by force. If US law was allowed to play out in immigration court, the facts would have been established, and if the judge said, back to Cuba you go, then that could be appealed throught the judicial process as we have always done. If no appeal was successful, the law would have done its job.

Never has America returned someone who came to its shore seeking freedom back to their home government at the point of a gun. That's was the most disgusting raw use of power I have ever seen in my life other than Waco. And it is no coincidence that both events took place under the watchful eye of Janet Reno and Bill and Hillary Clinton.

Again, Bill Clinton did the bidding of the Communists that he loves so much. Elian's father was never the custodial parent, and Castro used "father's rights" which don't exist in Cuba, but in our land, and used that as a pretext for his claim to Elian. Elian's father was obviously coerced by Castro, as it was a matter of record that he supported Elian and his former wife taking Elian to Florida. If he was OK with that happening because it meant a better life for Elian when Elian left, why did he change his mind afterward? Because Elian's mother died? It didn't become an issue until Elian was rescued. Elian's dad was not an involved father before Elian left Cuba. I hope he enjoys his perks now, becasue he enjoys them at the expense of his son growing up in a dictatorship.

Any doubt was erased in my mind that this was a hideous abuse of power was on Easter Sunday morning after the raid when President Clinton had a short press conference. He made a statement, and turned while a smirk came across his face, and he walked away without taking questions. That b#st#ard! He was so yellow he couldn't even answer a question about this unbelievable use of raw power to benefit a dictator.And who but a soulless monster could smirk at such a grave moment? And he allowed it to happen at the time one of the most cherished Christian holidays, Easter. This from the President that was so worried about bombing Muslims during Ramadan.

Someday Elian will return to the United states as a young man, free to make his own decision. As for Castro, he can't attend his appointment with Satan fast enough for me.

[Doe Eyes]

That's the justification the Saudi's use to hold custody of American children.

[TheSpottedOwl]

It is not the father's politics. The father has no rights. And, no, the USA was not consistent in the action. By US law, Elian had full protection to stay in this country. The law was twisted to allow his re-introduction into communism. That is shameful. And if we could really know the truth, I doubt Elian's father wanted Elian to be return. But the father's wants and desires played no part in any of this saga.

Pcx99-Are you by chance a "non custodial father"? What if Elian's mother and father were both in agreement about the run to Florida? That boy has relatives here in the US. Maybe the plan was for the mother and child to get out, then the father would try and leave when the heat was off. This is Communist Cuba; everyone wants to leave!

Elian's father simply didn't have a choice but to ask for his son. Sure the mother could have run off with the boy, unbeknownst to the father; but you have to figure how she could hide that kind of planning. His father(and any family members still over there) must have gone through hell through all of this dog and pony show.

Elian and his father are yet two more victims of Castro...and Janet Reno. This isn't exactly an example of the United States trampling on a father's rights. It's more of a human rights issue. Elian's father would always be welcome here....

[Mr Rogers]

By your rationale, a man is prison should get custody of his child the moment the mother dies.

The US DOES pay too much attention to parental rights - that's why we have so many children returned to abusive homes. But we also recognize when the home is unsuitable - and Cuba qualifies. A politcized INS gave the ruling the Castro loving democrats wanted, and the courts then defered to the INS.

[ml/nj]

That's the justification the Saudi's use to hold custody of American children.

You don't see the difference between us and the Saudis?

ML/NJ

PS   I don't think the Saudis have much use for folks like you.

[Doe Eyes]

I don't think the Saudis have much use for folks like you.

My heart is so broken.

[bvw]

Well, to support the "family" shall we open up our jails so that sons can stay with their incarcerated Dads? Cuba is a slave state. Elian's "Dad" is Castro, there. His real Dad? Who knows -- and you likely don't -- how much he is with Elian.

And NONE of us know whether he is, in fact, the real Dad.

We know his MOM *died* tyring to bring him here, and we should have HONORed her attempt.

But so many wanted in on Castro's good side! The good side of a murderous tyrannical dictator. What side would that be. NO SIDE!

Yet there you place yourself. And not for family values either -- for in Cuba only the STATE is your family.