Is it just me or is Atheism a religion?

Philosphy Forum ^ | FR Post 12-6-2003 | "A Sloth"

[vannrox]

This is a subject near to my heart and my own spiritual journey, and I'd like to discuss it with as many intelligent minds as possible as I ponder it. It seems to me as though the most basic, intrinsic aspect of a religious philosophy is faith. I have been talking to a lot of Christians lateley, so I'm not sure if that is the prevailing veiw among people of other persuasions. Anyways, it seems to me as though a religion can really be boiled down to beliving that it is THE answer, and it seems to me as though atheism is no exception.

But this is where I came to realize there many different brands of thought given the title of Atheist, each with their own twists. Here are some categories that i have run across, and my opinion(just roll with me on this one):

Spiritual Atheists Some people claim to be "spiritual" but not "religious," disavowing belief in a god persay in favor of just not thinking about the issue. It sounds just lazy to me. They get the "all good people go to heaven" feeling without defining good, heaven, or even feeling itself. This may work for some, but it seems to lack any real thought into the matter.

Non-Practicing Atheists And there are the "Catholics" like my parents who dont buy a word the church says, but are so afraid of what it means to be atheist that they desperately cling to a religion that offers them no real meaning.

Deist Atheists Some people use Atheism to describe a sense of disbelief in the major established world religions, which to me sounds like it could still be a throwback to the deism of the 18th century. Basically it can be summed up as: There is some kind of god, hes a pretty decent guy, dont be an ass and everything will turn out ok somehow, once again, a little too lazy for me.

Orthodox Atheists Then there are the Atheists so absolutly steadfast in their disbelief in god that they would have made an excellent Christian in another life (THAT's an interesting turn of phase!). They dont buy the proof that the various religions offer, but the seem to narrowmindedly rule out any possiblities except absolute soulless oblivion. I have a friend like this, and i have yet to figure out how he can 100% FOR SURE rule out a higher power of any type...

Agnostics This is the only one that really makes sense to me. I mean, maybe there's a god. Probably not one of the big religion's vengeful, mythical "gods" with their spotty and doubtfully accurate "historical records," I doubt reincarnation that doesnt work well with the increasing entropy of the universe, and the evidence for it is even less credible than the rest ... But prove to me god's not just hiding...

Thats where i'm at right now. I would appreciate any input, even religious propaganda. I want to know the truth, even if it means the complete destruction of my current schema for faith.

I would even go so far as to recommend two such books, The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith, to anyone who is openminded enough to consider Christianity. I almost bought into it after reading those, but to me, there are still holes (i'll probably talk about those later) If your already Christian, they will strengthen your faith, and if not, they will rock your world...

[Dataman]

Actually the burden of proof is on the new idea which is atheism. Theists do not use the burden of proof to escape a difficult argument as do atheists.

[WackyKat]

True, and we're not trying to prove anything, either. We simply disbelieve in all deities and the like. Why should anyone care that we disbelieve?

They care because they view mere non-belief as a subversive attack on their worldview

That many people don't find their religious beliefs convincing makes them worry, deep down, that maybe their beliefs are false.

They psychologically compensate for this by going on the warpath against "sinners"

[Skywalk]

Interesting take, but what is morality then?

[GETMAIN]

William F Buckley once remarked that only atheists try to define themselves by what they do not believe.

Some "militant" atheists do, certainly. If he (or you) mean to apply this to all atheists, then the statement is ridiculous.

You have a beilef system based on wishful thinking.

===>Would you say the same about Christianity?
===>Is this meant to be taken as a perjorative statement?

[MineralMan]

"If that is all you did, no one would care. The atheistic world view is at war with the biblical world view and is openly hostile towards it. So you tell me-- why should theists care about a world view that is openly hostile toward them?"

Interesting. I'm not hostile toward any religion or its followers. Whatever works for you is fine with me, with regard to such beliefs. I just don't happen to believe that any gods or other supernatural entities exist. I behave well, don't trouble anyone, and generally cause no harm to other folks unless they threaten me physically.

Again, why do you care whether I believe in a deity? How on earth does my disbelief affect you?

[highlander_UW]

If you do not make a "definitive claim" that God exists, then that would make you an agnostic, no? Are you claiming to be an agnostic, or are you just being disingenuous in your responses to WackyKat?

I have not said I'm not making a definitive claim, I'm saying we are both making definitive claims. I'm willing to agree that mine is based upon faith (although I believe more than just faith), he, on the other hand wishes me to accept that he has no burden of proof for his definitive claim from some sort of contention that only positive claims require proof, which is absurd. No attempt to be disingenous at all. Perhaps I'm just not being clear enough.

FWIW, I'm not asking either of you two to prove anything. Just pointing out that your dance has no rhythm.

LOL, I don't mind you tossing in your 2 cents.

[Dataman]

Don't change the subject. Your paradoxical question has false premises and is unworthy of anyone who pretends to be knowledgeable. It is a parlor trick.

Can you comprehend that?
Do you follow?
Can I refer you to a book on logic?
Have I adequately illustrated your patronizing manner?

[MineralMan]

"Actually the burden of proof is on the new idea which is atheism"

Atheism is not a new idea at all. Indeed, it predates Christianity by a long, long way.

[#3Fan]

Atheists worship the God of forces.

Dan 11:38 But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things.

Physical laws are God's laws. But atheists don't realize that the physical laws can be suspended by God at any time:

2Ki 6:5 But as one was felling a beam, the axe head fell into the water: and he cried, and said, Alas, master! for it was borrowed.

2Ki 6:6 And the man of God said, Where fell it? And he shewed him the place. And he cut down a stick, and cast [it] in thither; and the iron did swim.

[GETMAIN]

Thanks for clarifying. I apologize for the disingenuos comment. I just wasn't seeing where you were going with your commments.

[jwalsh07]

They care because they view mere non-belief as a subversive attack on their worldview

Simply not true. Most of us are only concerned with how the atheirstic humanists affect public policy.

That many people don't find their religious beliefs convincing makes them worry, deep down, that maybe their beliefs are false.

This is a nice twist on the "if you oppose homosexual marriage then you must be a repressed homosexual argument" but it is just as fallacious.

They psychologically compensate for this by going on the warpath against "sinners"

LOL. You guys gotta come up with some better stuff, same ole, same ole.

[highlander_UW]

Wrong question. Most atheists don't claim there is no god. They simply disbelieve in deities and supernatural entities of any kind.

Then they are misidentifying themselves as atheists. I posted the dictionary defintion previously, if you disagree you'll have to take it up with the linguistic authorities.

furthermore, exactly how does denying the existence of supernatural entities of any kind differ from denying the existence of God?

I disbelieve. That's not a claim of any kind. It is simply a statement of my disbelief. I disbelieve in ghosts, too. I disbelieve in Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, as well.

You are free to disbelieve anything you wish, but when that disbelief becomes a definitive statement that there is no God then unless you can prove that belief, it is based upon your faith that you are correct. I'm saying that belief without proof is faith.

I don't try to convince anyone else not to believe. I worship nothing. I have no religion. Why is that so hard to understand?

I understand very well, although your desire to convince anyone or not is immaterial. A definitive statement without proof can then only be based upon faith. Why is it hard for you to accept that you hold a view based upon your faith that it is so separate of proof?

[GETMAIN]

disingenuos disingenuous

[#3Fan]

Atheists generally do not congregate for purpose of furthering their beliefs and for the most part are not organized in any definitive body.

One word: Universities.

[MarkL]

Back in college, I was in a class titled, "Philosophy of Religion," and the number one task was to define just what a religion was... And based on the criteria we developed (which I couldn't recall now if you were to pay me!) we decided that Atheism was a religion, whereas Secular Humanism, which is often a philosophy behind atheism, is not.

Mark

[Skywalk]

So I'm supposed to follow this God "just 'cuz?" As for sin causing viruses, natural disasters, etc that's nonsense. You would have to believe in collective punishment(us being punished forever for Adam and Eve) and Creationism, ie. a world in which the laws of physics(including those that rule biology) did not exist prior to some act of "defiance" of God.(I've read of apocryphal myths where eating the fruit was SUPPOSED to happen.)


What if God is more like the creature in an episode of Star Trek called Nagilum? He was "curious" about humanity and how we reacted to death and other situations. So he killed crew members to see how others would respond.

He was not "evil" because he felt no emotion or joy from the deaths and suffering--only curiosity.

What if God is merely a great Scientist who, through nearly infinite combinations of lives, personalities, events, etc, wants to learn and 'experience' things that would not have been possible in the void before Creation?

What if God is actually a Satanic-like being who looks forward to roasting us in hell? How do you know that is not what God is?

How can God BE a moral code? Why does he believe in X, Y and Z? How would he know about these things without having ever experienced them(and don't talk about Jesus being the incarnate, because that was millions of years after the first suffering of a living being.)

[RinaseaofDs]

You'd be right if the atheist looked at the Ten Commandments statue in a court house and shrugged his shoulders.

Atheists aren't doing that. They are filing suit on the basis that it discriminates against their beliefs as atheists.

They are suing because they believe the US is promoting Christianity over all other religions (which, in order to have standing in such a suit, would have to include your belief that no God exists).

[whattajoke]

Atheists worship the God of forces.
Dan 11:38 But in his...

That's funny, because Dataman just told us atheism is a new thing and therefore atheists have the burden of proof (the points you earned for originality, data, are unfortunately negated by the subtraction for your massive historical error). So how is it that the Book of Daniel addresses them?

I'm pretty sure the cavemen were atheists, as an FYI.

[Skywalk]

Funny how some don't understand history enough to know where their beliefs really came from, or that "there is nothing new under the sun." Atheism and communism predate Christianity.

Buddhism, the "satanic counterfeit" predates Christianity and indeed likely influenced it's creation.

Savior-gods who die and are reborn pre-date Christianity. Why did the last in a long line of savior gods who die and are resurrected become THE only one to have actually existed as described in myth?

[Skywalk]

Some atheists are, not all.