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"salvation is a gift from God and cannot be earned"

Ah, cute how they just couldn't help themselves from blatantly introducing a contentious interpretation that simply dismisses all Catholics as non-Christian...

/Agnostic Theological Rant On

My understanding of Catholic doctrine is that while, yes, Faith is a gift from God and Faith is required for salvation (and God gives that gift freely to anyone who truly opens their heart and asks for it, which matches my reading of the Bible AND my observational experience), it -must- also be -earned- with good works. None of the self-serving Calvinist manifest destiny "I was born saved and nothing I do or don't do can dislodge me from my rightful place in heaven, and no amount of good on your part can save you" theories.

There is nothing in that Catholic perspective that contradicts the Bible from all my readings of it. In fact, that Catholic view allows far -more- citations from the Bible as evidence to support it, not less.

But the way that sentence is phrased would deter most Catholics from agreeing with that sentence. Yes, say Catholics, God's gift is required but it -can- and -must- ALSO be earned, so someone who believed that earning salvation was required would be forced to answer that they didn't believe that sentence.

Even though I am an agnostic, I find that Catholic interpretation far far more consistent with what I read in the Bible than the supposed "biblical worldview" expoused above. I don't really have a personal dog in this fight, but I find theology very interesting and I read a lot, including the Bible.

At the VERY least, Protestants should allow that it -is- subject to legitimate differences of interpretation and that it is interpreted that way by a very significant portion of the world's Christian population, and ALL of it for more than a thousand years or so after Christ's death, until challenged by anti-authoritarians (we call those "liberals" today) who felt differently.

If salvation cannot be earned, why would Jesus tell others not to sin? Why would he command good works? Doesn't this perspective of manifest destiny and salvation is purely a function of God's predetermined will actually invalidate 50% of what Jesus said as irrelevant?

Not to mention "earning it" is rather required from a rational philosophical perspective. If we're all simply already slated for salvation or damnation and nothing we do can change that, what's the point of having free will? And if free will isn't a critical part of God's plan, what else would explain God allowing so much evil on Earth?

From my agnostic perspective, the Catholic thesis in this matter holds together pretty solidly in the face of theological inquiry. I've never seen the theological contradicitons that are created by the "salvation cannot be earned" theory explained in a way I can accept as anything other than evasion or dismissal of the "God works in mysterious ways" variety. I see Protestants slam Catholics as a "Church of men, not Jesus" all the time, but that entire notion argued by Luther and John Calvin and others that pervades most Protestant religions sounds a whole lot more like man's influence to me. *shrug*

Now not all Protestants buy into the manifest destiny line, but let's face it, the "Faith alone" vs. "Faith AND Action" argument IS the single and most profound difference between Catholicism and the bulk of the Protestant religions, and cited by many Protestants long before John Calvin was born as a reason for why Catholics are "pagans".

BUT, back to the point I brought this all up. Hey, phrasing this poll in such a way as to automatically dismiss all faithful Catholics as non-Christians who don't believe in the Bible is hardly surprising. No one ever said the propaganda war by Protestants against Catholics ever ended. You gotta love the title too. "Church doesn't think like Jesus". Hmmm. "Church". I didn't know there was a single "Church" for all Protestants. The only "Church" I'm aware of that is ever consistently described as singular is the Catholic Church. Which doesn't even rate mention in this thread - apparently we're already supposed to know they are simply clueless about what the Bible says in this matter and they don't hold a biblical worldview.

Now, if I have misinterpreted -either- Catholic or most Protestant doctrines, please feel free to inform me otherwise, but the respective positions between Catholics and Protestants on this question I learned from my reading, my education, and my instruction from those who professed to belong to several of those Christian faiths, so please cite sources as well.

Also, I'd be interested to see where in the Bible Jesus says that good works are irrelevant and have no part in salvation.

/Agnostic Theological Rant Off

Qwinn

it -must- also be -earned- with good works

Lets assume for the moment that salvation can be earned. In order for that to be so the works must be perfect, as only perfect is good enough for God. What does God say about our works?

Isaiah 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Our best effort is polluted. We can no more perform perfect works than we can live up to the law. If we could earn our salvation then the sacrifice of Jesus would not have been needed. He died for us because we are incapable of living perfectly for Him

Please read all of Romans 4 for the discussion of works vs faith. Paul makes it pretty clear that salvation is not by works.

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.