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A Biblical Worldview Has a Radical Effect on a Person's Life
Barna Research Group, Ltd. ^ | December 1, 2003 | Barna Research Group, Ltd.

Posted on 12/02/2003 4:06:02 PM PST by Federalist 78

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To: Federalist 78
The internal consistency of the New Testament documents is about 99.5% textually pure. <- Completely Incorrect. Any one who has seriously studied the Bible and its history understands that the text has changes significantly over the years. My oldest copy was printed in 1810 and it is very different than my more used King James.
Year Language Translator(s) Work
Before 450 AD Teutonic/Saxon
450 AD Old English/Saxon
680 Caedmon Paraphrases and poems of Creation, Exodus, Incarnation, Death and Resurrection of Christ
700 From Latin Aldhelm The Psalter
700 From Latin Egbert Matthew, Mark, Luke
674-735 From Latin Venerable Bede John
870-901 Latin to Anglo Saxon Alfred the Great Ten Commandments; parts of Exodus; passage from Acts
950 Latin to Northumbrian Aldred Interlinear gloss of Latin to Northumbrian in the Gospels
? to Old English The Wessex Gospels
1000 Latin to English Aelfric 1st 7 books of OT; other OT passages
1066 Normal Conquest
1100 Middle English
1200 Teutonic vocab. with Norman syntax Orm(in) Poetic paraphrase of the Gospels and Acts
1320 Southern dialect of English William of Shoreham Psalter? First "literal" translation into English
1320-1340 Latin Vulgate to North English Richard Rolle Literal translation; The Psalter
1380 Latin Vulgate to John Wycliffe The New Testament
1388 English (completed by Nicholas of Hereford) The Old Testament
1395 John Purvey Revision of Wycliffe’s translations into smoother English — First complete Bible in English
1454 Gutenberg [Invention of moveable type]
1500 Modern English
1526 Greek to English The New Testament — the basis for all subsequent revisions from 16th cen. to today!
1530 Hebrew to English William Tyndale The Pentateuch
1531 Hebrew to English Jonah
1534-1536 Revisions of Old and New Testament
1535 Vulgate, Luther’s German, other Bibles to English Miles Coverdale Complete Bible — based on Tyndale’s work
1535 (Borrowed from French versions) John Rogers (a.k.a. Thomas Matthew) Tyndale and Coverdale’s OT combined with Tyndale’s revised New Testament. Controversial notes and prologues.
Year Language Translator(s) Work
1539 Greek to English Richard Taverner Improved Rogers’ New Testament
1539 (A revision of Rogers’ work) (directed by Coverdale) The Great Bible (so called because of its size); approved by the King of England). Received with great prestige; considered authoritative by Church authorities.
1557 Based on Tyndale’s work, revised with new Greek analysis (directed by John Knox; primary translator was William Whittingham) The Geneva Bible - New Testament. Introduced italicized words; divided chapters into verses.
1560 The Geneva Bible - Old Testament with revised New Tesament. 140 editions before 1644; more popular than Bishop’s Bible (1568) and KJV (1611). First work of a committee of translators.
1568 (Hebrew and Greek work in comparison with The Great Bible) Committee of bishops The Bishops’ Bible - Revision of The Great Bible. Could not usurp the popularity of The Geneva Bible. Not printed after 1602. Official basis of the revision of 1611.
1582 Latin Vulgate to English Richard Bristow, William Allen (and William Reynolds?) Rheims New Testament. Roman Catholic work motivated to combat the Protestant Bibles. Poor English. Republished in 1600, 1621, 1633
1609/10 Latin Vulgate to English; new Vulgate manuscripts Gregory Martin (d. 1582), William Allen Douay Old Testament. More an English reading of Latin than a translation into English. Second edition in 1635
1611 Hebrew and Greek to English, guided by Bishops’ Bible (basis for KJV) Authorized by James I; committee of 54 men, 47 of whom did the revision. King James Version. A revision of Bishops’ Bible with translations from Hebrew and Greek with reference to Tyndale, Coverdale, Rogers, Geneva, etc. Numerous revisions.
1718 Latin Vulgate to English Cornelius Nary Revised translation of the New Testament.
1730 Robert Whitman Revised Rheims New Testament
1749/50 Latin Vulgate to English Richard Challoner Rheims-Douay-Challoner Bible. Second edition of the Rheims-Douay Bible. Almost a completely new translation from Latin.
1762 Dr. Paris Revision of KJV
1769 Dr. Blayney Revision of KJV (differs from 1611 edition in at least 75,000 details — spelling, typos, etc.). Basis of today’s KJV.
1880 Greek NT to English ed. by R.L. Clark, Alfred Goodwin, W. Sanday The Variorum Bible. Revision of KJV;
1881 Greek; revision of KJV Committee (European and USA) Revised English Version. New Testament.

(Revised KJV)

1885 Hebrew; revision of KJV Committee (European and USA) Revised English Version. Old Testament. (Revised KJV). Entire Bible printed in 1898.
1901 Hebrew, Greek American committee American Standard Version.
1946 Committee Revised Standard Version. (Revised KJV)

21 posted on 12/02/2003 6:58:59 PM PST by TheFrog
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To: lelio
John 1:1:
In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word. (Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
(Recovery Version)
Harwood, 1768, "and was himself a divine person"
Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"
Thompson, 1829, "the Logos was a god
Goodspeed, 1939, "the Word was divine
Torrey, 1947, "the Word was god
New English, 1961, "what God was,the Word was"
Moffatt, 1972, "the Logos was divine
Translator's NT, 1973, "The Word was with God and shared his nature
Barclay, 1976, "the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God"
Schneider, 1978, "and godlike sort was the Logos
Schonfield, 1985, "the Word was divine
Revised English, 1989, "what God was, the Word was
Scholar's Version, 1993, "The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was
Madsen, 1994, "the Word was <EM>a divine Being"
Becker, 1979, "ein Gott war das Logos" [a God/god was the Logos/logos]
Stage, 1907, "Das Wort war selbst gttlichen Wesens" [The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being].
Bhmer, 1910, "Es war fest mit Gott verbunden, ja selbst gttlichen Wesens" [It was strongly linked to God, yes itself divine Being/being]
Thimme, 1919, "Gott von Art war das Wort" [God of Kind/kind was the Word/word]
Baumgarten et al, 1920, "Gott (von Art) war der Logos" [God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos]
Holzmann, 1926, "ein Gott war der Gedanke" [a God/god was the Thought/thought]
Rittenlmeyer, 1938, "selbst ein Gott war das Wort" [itself a God/god was the Word/word]
Lyder Brun (Norw. professor of NT theology), 1945, "Ordet var av guddomsart" [the Word was of divine kind]
Pffflin, 1949, "war von gttlicher Wucht [was of divine Kind/kind]
Albrecht, 1957, "gttlichen Wesen hatte das Wort" [godlike Being/being had the Word/word]
Smit, 1960, "verdensordet var et guddommelig vesen" [the word of the world was a divine being]
Menge, 1961, "Gott (= gttlichen Wesens) war das Wort"[God(=godlike Being/being) was the Word/word)
Haenchen, 1980, "Gott (von Art) war der Logos" [God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos]
Die Bibel in heutigem Deutsch, 1982, "r war bei Gott und in allem Gott gleich"[He was with God and in all like God]
Haenchen (tr. By R. Funk), 1984, "divine (of the category divinity)was the Logos"
Schultz, 1987, "ein Gott (oder: Gott von Art) war das Wort" [a God/god (or: God/god of Kind/kind) was the Word/word]
"At the beginning of Creation, there dwelt with God a mighty spirit, the Marshal, who produced all things in their order." John 1:1 Free 21st Century NT
"In a beginning was the [Marshal] [Word] and the [Marshal] [Word] was with the God and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god." John 1:1 Literal 21st Century NT
22 posted on 12/02/2003 7:22:46 PM PST by TheFrog
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To: TheFrog
Or in Greek: en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ho theos kai theos en ho logos
23 posted on 12/02/2003 7:56:45 PM PST by TheFrog
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To: happygrl
Thank you for the consideration.
24 posted on 12/02/2003 8:52:04 PM PST by RLK
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To: TheFrog
If you don't believe it, don't be a Christian. Is that so hard?
25 posted on 12/02/2003 9:00:33 PM PST by stands2reason ("Don't funk with my funk."--Bootsy Collins)
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To: stands2reason
A) I am a Christian.
B) It is my faith that allows me to understand that the bible, as we know it today, has been manipulated by men to meet the wants and desires of men, and still believe in the Lord.
C) Lets make no mistake the Bible in its current format ARS, NIV, KJ etc., have been deliberately translated (reworded) to lose the original message. (Read up on some of the people who revised the bible between KJ and the present, what you find may surprise you a lot)

That being said, I find it amazing that people will pop off a "Holy Snippet" and not understand what it means, or that the verse they are quoting is from a version of the bible that is far from the accepted translation. Which is why I posted John 1:1. By many accounts, one of the most misunderstood verses in the bible and used by certain religions to argue that Christ is not the Lord. (You see these people in airports and they come to your door all the time.)
26 posted on 12/02/2003 9:26:23 PM PST by TheFrog
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To: TheFrog
Your table is at best a partial compilation of Anglo-Saxon and English translations of the Bible. The original autographa were in Greek, Hebrew, and Aramaic. Generally speaking, the claims made by Christians of Biblical inerrancy apply to the original autographa, which are long gone.

From the arrival of the Angles and Saxons in Britain until the time of Wycliffe, there was no complete translation of the Bible into English. The partial translations that existed, as well as Wycliffe's, were based on the Latin Vulgate, a translation from the Greek and Hebrew made by the Church father Jerome in the late 4th Century AD. The general illiteracy of the masses, the high cost of books, and the preference of the Roman Catholic authorities that the entire Bible remain in the hands of the clergy and scholars combined to prevent a complete English translation until Wycliffe.

The chart ignores the existence of several Scriptural traditions. In the Roman Catholic Church, up until the time of Vatican II, all authorized venacular translations of Scripture, such as the Douay-Rheims, were based on Jerome's Latin Vulgate. The Vulgate, in turn, used a family of manuscripts drawn from Alexandria, Egypt. The Eastern Orthodox churches favored manuscripts from the Antiochian school. With the fall of Constantinople, many Orthodox scholars fled to Italy and elsewhere in Western Europe, bringing their Greek skills and their manuscripts with them. From those manuscripts and from the Hebrew Scriptures that had been preserved by the Jews, the Dutch scholar Erasmus compiled a Greek and Hebrew Scripture known as the Textus Receptus. The Textus Receptus was the basis for Luther's German Bible and all the English Bibles used by Anglophone Protestants until the late 19th Century, including the KJV. With regard to the Reformation era Protestant English Bibles, all are essentially similar. Indeed, the KJV was essentially a revision of Tyndale's Bible, but one with the royal imprimatur. The principal difference between the KJV and the Geneva Bible was the absence in the former of the strongly Calvinistic and anti-monarchical footnotes in the latter, as might have been expected from a Bible approved by a High Church Anglican king.

Additionally, the differences between the 1611 KJV and the 1769 "revision" mainly centered on the changes in orthography, grammar, and spelling that took place in the 158 year period. There was no new translation involved, just such items as the replacement of "f" for "s" or "u" for "v". It is no different than changing a text written by a Briton and Americanizing word spellings like "labour" or "centre" for popular reading in the U.S. Virtually all the 75,000 changes you cite revolve around those items.

Your chart also fails to note the development of textual criticism in the late 19th Century and beyond. Westcott and Hort, two English scholars, pioneered in this area. Textual criticism was based on the concept that, by comparing manuscripts by their frequency and age, one could develop the most accurate rendering of the original autographa. The Revised English Version, the American Standard Version, and the Revised Standard Version are not revisions of the KJV, as your chart inaccurately states. They represent independent translations based on the critical text, and not the Textus Receptus on which the KJV and the other Reformation era Bibles are based.

Your chart also fails to note the development of English Bibles after 1950. It ignores the New International Version (NIV), the most popular translation among evangelicals, as well as the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Bible, translations favored by mainline Protestants and Roman Catholics, respectively. All three of these Bible versions, as well as other translations like the New American Standard Bible (NASB), derive from modern critical texts and not from the Textus Receptus or the Latin Vulgate.

Finally, your chart does not deal with different theories of translation: word for word, such as the NASB and the KJV, vs. dynamic equivalence (NIV) and thought for thought, as found in the New Century Version.

In summary, your chart reflects little of the actual history of English translations of the Bible, the derivation of the underlying manuscripts, and theories of translation. The chart is hardly reflective of "serious study" of Scripture.

27 posted on 12/02/2003 10:25:33 PM PST by Wallace T.
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To: TheFrog
You have assembled a large, and thoroughly heterodox, collection of translations or interpretations of John 1:1. However, about half of the examples you cite are in German and one example is in Dutch. Of what relevance are translations from koine Greek into German or Dutch to translations from koine Greek into English? From the very start, we must eliminate the non-English translations.

We must also recognize that all English translations used by churches within the pale of orthodox belief translate John 1:1 nearly uniformly:

NASB: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

KJV: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

New King James Version: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

New Revised Standard Version: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Third Millenium Bible: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Douay-Rheims version: "In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God."

RSV: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Good News Translation: "In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

New Living Translation: "In the beginning the Word already existed. He was with God, and he was God."

The Good News Translation: "In the beginning the Word already existed; the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Young's Literal Translation: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Weymouth New Testament: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Wycliffe New Testament: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

21st Century King James Version: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

English Standard Version: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

NET Bible: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was fully God."

New American Bible: "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

Here we have 17 translations, both Catholic and Protestant, drawn from the Textus Receptus, the Latin Vulgate, and modern critical texts, spanning from the 16th to the 21st Centuries, and using all three major translating methods: word for word, dynamic equivalence, and thought for thought. All translations either use the same words or convey the same idea.

Greek, like any othe language, has its particular grammar and structure. From the footnotes to the NET Bible:
"Or “and what God was the Word was.” Colwell’s Rule is often invoked to support the translation of qeov" (qeos) as definite (“God”) rather than indefinite (“a god”) here. However, Colwell’s Rule merely permits, but does not demand, that a predicate nominative ahead of an equative verb be translated as definite rather than indefinite. Furthermore, Colwell’s Rule did not deal with a third possibility, that the anarthrous predicate noun may have more of a qualitative nuance when placed ahead of the verb. A definite meaning for the term is reflected in the traditional rendering “the word was God.” From a technical standpoint, though, it is preferable to see a qualitative aspect to anarthrous qeov" in John 1:1c (D. B. Wallace, Exegetical Syntax, 266-69). Translations like the NEB, REB, and Moffatt are helpful in capturing the sense in John 1:1c, that the Word was fully deity in essence (just as much God as God the Father). However, in contemporary English “the Word was divine” (Moffatt) does not quite catch the meaning since “divine” as a descriptive term is not used in contemporary English exclusively of God. The translation “what God was the Word was” is perhaps the most nuanced rendering, conveying that everything God was in essence, the Word was too. This points to unity of essence between the Father and the Son without equating the persons. However, in surveying a number of native speakers of English, some of whom had formal theological training and some of whom did not, the editors concluded that the fine distinctions indicated by “what God was the Word was” would not be understood by many contemporary readers. Thus the translation “the Word was fully God” was chosen because it is more likely to convey the meaning to the average English reader that the Logos (which “became flesh and took up residence among us” in John 1:14 and is thereafter identified in the Fourth Gospel as Jesus) is one in essence with God the Father while distinct in person from God the Father.. sn And the Word was fully God. John’s theology consistently drives toward the conclusion that Jesus, the incarnate Word, is just as much God as God the Father. This can be seen, for example, in texts like John 10:30 ('The Father and I are one'), 17:11 ('so that they may be one just as we are one'), and 8:58 (“before Abraham came into existence, I am”). The construction in John 1:1c does not equate the Word with the person of God; rather it affirms that the Word and God are one in essence."

The footnote to the New American Bible makes a similar argument: "In the beginning: also the first words of the Old Testament (Genesis 1:1). Was: this verb is used three times with different meanings in this verse: existence, relationship, and predication. The Word (Greek logos): this term combines God's dynamic, creative word (Genesis), personified preexistent Wisdom as the instrument of God's creative activity (Proverbs), and the ultimate intelligibility of reality (Hellenistic philosophy). With God: the Greek preposition here connotes communication with another. Was God: lack of a definite article with 'God' in Greek signifies predication rather than identification. "

The structure and grammar of the koine Greek language, the context of John 1:1 within the Gospel of John, with its emphasis on the equality of Jesus Christ and the Father, and the tradition of the Christian churches all argue for the standard translation used by orthodox churches.

28 posted on 12/03/2003 6:17:15 AM PST by Wallace T.
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To: kitkat
The study doesn't say that "non-born agains" live immoral lifestyles. It's saying that against the whole background of the entire population, those with Barna's defined "biblical worldview" live, on average, lives that are markedly different from the undifferentiated national average. It doesn't say anything about your morality or immorality. I'm sure that orthodox Jews would score very "high" on Barna's "morality scale," as would Mormons and many others. And all of us know "irreligious people" who live very moral lives.

The point of the survey is that what you believe affects how you act. If you didn't think that was accurate, you probably wouldn't be hanging around this site.

29 posted on 12/03/2003 7:47:22 AM PST by cookcounty
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To: TheFrog
"Re:"and the Bible is accurate in all of its teachings." Ah but the question is: which version of the Bible is accurate? What revision? Was it inaccurate before the first counsel of Nicea in 325, or did it become accurate after Constantine "requested" changes in 327. Or perhaps it accurate following Second Council of Nicea in 787 (Seventh Ecumenical Council) Which books? Five major revisions to what we now consider the New Testament.

The usual formulation is that the Bible is accurate in its plenary form, i.e., in the orignal manuscripts. The objection that the scriptures have gone through many significant changes since the originals is speculative skepticism, at best. It is based on assumptions that human error would have, over time, in all cases, radically distorted the message. But what is remarkable about the "versions" is their exceedingly close similarity. There are no "major revisions" that have been discovered. If I were to ask you how the differing versions affect basic beliefs (let's take , for example those outlined by Barna above), you'd have a very hard time showing how one version is in harmony with those beliefs, while another leads to a different place.

If you're not just taking potshots,and are interested in pursuing an understanding of how this works, I'd recommend Clark Pinnock's "Biblical Revelation," or something by Rene Pache. F.F. Bruce's "The New Testament Documents: Are they Reliable?" is a good short introduction to the subject of biblical manuscripts and assessing their accuracy.

Virtually all evangelical scholars believe there are errors in the text as we have it, but these are almost entirely copyist errors, (mis-spellings or substituting, say, "calf" for "bull" etc. This is why a basic principle of evangelical interpretation is that it is unwise to base any major teaching on a single passage. "Scripture interprets scripture."

Skeptics through the centuries have argued that the text would have evolved over such a long time. The fact is, they DID NOT evolve. With the passage of time, we have found ever more ancient manuscripts, and what is striking is how exceedingly accurate they are. The major modern translations are all based on the earliest manuscripts, not the latest. When the translators examine the original language manuscripts, highest weight is given to 2 factors: How close it is in time to the original, and is it well-attested (number of copies extant, which implies an earlier original source).

Albert Schweitzer (among many others) used to be an advocate for the idea that the scriptures had gone through a long gradual transformation over time. This was an argument based on speculative skepticism rather than knowledge. No serious scholar today holds this view. Unfortunately, on the popular level, there are a lot of skeptics who repeat Schweitzer's assertions, unaware that this is no longer a serious position. If significant changes occurred, it had to be very early on.

30 posted on 12/03/2003 8:41:28 AM PST by cookcounty
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To: TheFrog
2 errors in your logic:

1). You make the mistake of thinking that each translation was an extension of the previous one. Not so. Recent translations basically chuck all the other recent translations and head straight for the most recently-discovered ancient stuff. The new translations are based upon, say, the King James, only in that there may be some attempt to adopt language of a literary high quality, when it proves faithful to the ancient Greek.

2. Style and wording may change (that's why the Bible keeps going through translations, to keep up with modern, evolving, common speech). That doesn't mean the message has changed. If you were correct about this< you would be able to point to many ways in which the "RSV" or the "NIV" view, say, the Crucifixion or the Ressurrection quite differently than in Sinaiticus, but the plain fact is, the modern translations are in fact excellent renditions of the most ancient texts available --and those are very old, indeed. To complain that the King James uses "Thou", where some modern translation uses "You" is to misunderstand the whole point of translation.

31 posted on 12/03/2003 9:04:44 AM PST by cookcounty
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To: Federalist 78
Thank you.

Too often I've met folks who say they are Christians but have no real understanding of what they profess to believe and why they believe it. The reason seems to come down to the fact that they aren't regularly immersing themselves in scripture.

Why aren’t some Christians well equipped with God’s Word? There are likely several explanations. Perhaps believers aren't being discipled. Perhaps church teachers aren't instructing clearly. More insidiously, perhaps certain church leaders are purposely withholding/perverting basic biblical truths, resulting in their congregations being ignorant or deceived in their beliefs.

Whatever the case, it is ultimately the individual Christian's choice to pursue true understanding of his/her Christian faith. Is he/she content to take whatever his church superiors tell him as "gospel" or is he inclined to compare what he has been told to the best source, the Bible?

Some have asked, "How will I know I'm reading the Bible correctly?" I believe the answer is simply to read it. There are many translations of the Bible but only one inerrant version. As Jesus promised, "the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you” (John 14:26). Studying with other believers is also essential.

The term “Bible-believing Christian” is redundant. You can’t have one without the other.
32 posted on 12/03/2003 3:18:44 PM PST by k2blader (Haruspex, beware.)
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To: Federalist 78
...and who also indicated they believe that when they die they will go to Heaven because they had confessed their sins and had accepted Jesus Christ as their savior.

You forgot baptism. There were no unbaptized Christians in the first century, fwiw.

33 posted on 12/03/2003 3:22:24 PM PST by Windsong
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To: TheFrog
There's only one version of the Bible. The KJV... ;)
34 posted on 12/03/2003 3:26:36 PM PST by billbears (Deo Vindice)
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To: TheFrog
Please see #32.

And are you trying to argue the KJV is the only correct translation? If so, hogwash.
35 posted on 12/03/2003 3:33:09 PM PST by k2blader (Haruspex, beware.)
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To: LiteKeeper
bump again
36 posted on 12/04/2003 10:04:29 PM PST by LiteKeeper
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