Posted on 12/01/2003 7:06:18 PM PST by Pubbie
SAMARRA, Iraq, Dec. 1 — American commanders vowed Monday that the killing of as many as 54 insurgents in this central Iraqi town would serve as a lesson to those fighting the United States, but Iraqis disputed the death toll and said anger against America would only rise.
Accounts of a three-hour battle fought in the alleys and streets of Samarra on Sunday diverged radically, with Iraqis saying only eight people had been killed, several of them civilians.
At the morgue, Adnan Sahib Dafar, 52, an ambulance driver, pointed to a dead woman on a steel tray. The woman, Mr. Dafar said, had worked at the city's big pharmaceutical factory and had walked into the crossfire between American forces and Iraqi guerrillas that began with an attempted ambush of an American military convoy.
"Is this woman shooting a rocket-propelled grenade?" he demanded, standing over the body. "Is she fighting?" There was only one other body, that of a gray-bearded old man, in the morgue.
Speaking in Brussels at a NATO defense ministers' meeting, Gen. Peter Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, portrayed the fight here, apparently the most deadly since Saddam Hussein was ousted in April, as a grim lesson for America's foes.
"They attacked, and they were killed," General Pace said of the insurgents. "So I think it will be instructive to them."
Speaking at the same meeting, Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld said such attacks were being mounted by "a limited number of people who are determined to kill innocent men, women and children." They are "being rounded up, captured, killed, wounded and interrogated," he said.
But on the streets of Samarra, an hour's drive north of Baghdad and just down the road from Tikrit, the hometown of Mr. Hussein, the lessons of the battle, and even its precise nature, seemed far from clear.
It appeared from the anger among Iraqis in Samarra that America faces a fundamental dilemma: As it steps up the pressure on the insurgents who are killing Americans and Iraqis in growing numbers, the very Iraqis they are trying to win over may be alienated.
"If I had a gun, I would have attacked the Americans myself," said Satar Nasiaf, 47, a shopkeeper who said he had watched two Iraqi civilians fall to American fire. "The Americans were shooting in every direction."
While American commanders said the Iraqi body count had come from precise reports filed immediately after a close-range battle, hospital officials said Monday that they could account for, at most, 8 dead, with most of those probably civilians.
The commanders said they were not surprised by the dearth of bodies. They do not routinely collect the enemy's dead from the battlefield, they said, and the guerrillas were unlikely to take their dead to the morgues.
The Pentagon typically does not publicize the number of enemy dead or wounded to avoid comparisons to the frequent enemy body counts in the Vietnam War, counts that ultimately proved to be a poor indicator of American military performance.
But after weeks of suffering casualties from an enemy that detonates roadside bombs from afar and fires mortars under cover of darkness, American military officials seemed to relish the opportunity on Monday to claim credit for dealing the fighters a punishing blow.
"They got whacked, and won't try that again," a senior military official in Washington said. The Pentagon insisted the body count was accurate.
The fight began when two American convoys that carry cash to two banks here rumbled into this hard-line Baathist city on Sunday with tanks, Bradley fighting vehicles and armored Humvees. Such convoys had been attacked before, and the Americans were ready.
As if on cue, the guerrillas attacked, but according to American commanders, the Iraqis suffered a devastating defeat. The battle ended, they said, with as many as 54 insurgents dead and only 5 Americans wounded.
Sunday's battle was the largest since May 1, when President Bush declared major combat over and the guerrilla war began.
(Excerpt) Read more at nytimes.com ...
Its far more likely that they simply didn't bring their dead to the morgue. I mean, are insurgents going to go to the local authorities and just turn over 50 bodies?
My guess is the 46-54 is pretty accurate.
If these folks aren't happy that terrorists are dead, then they're not the ones we're trying to win over, and they also might just happen to get caught in the crossfire while they're "just crossing the street."
Exactly. There are some towns we are just never gonna "win over". We just have to concentrate on keeping them under control, and keeping our guys safe. That's it. Pour all the reconstruction money and "hearts and minds" stuff into the other 80-90% of the country where it will do some good. Don't waste it on these towns. All they'll understand is brute strength.
Oh, and find Saddam. Take away the fantasy of these people that he will "come back."
Coalition Forces Repel Ambushes in Samarra
By K.L. Vantran
American Forces Press Service
WASHINGTON, Dec. 1, 2003 – Several soldiers and one civilian were wounded as coalition forces successfully repelled ambush attacks in Samarra, Iraq, Nov. 30, a military spokesman said today from Baghdad.
Elements of the 4th Infantry Division – a tank company from 1st Battalion, 66th Armor reinforced with two squads of military police and four squads of infantry – were assigned to provide security to Iraqi Currency Exchange teams as they conducted dinar exchange at two banks in the Iraqi city, said Army Brig. Gen. Mark Kimmitt, deputy director of operations, Combined Joint Task Force 7.
Around 11 a.m. local time coalition forces reported contact with the enemy with simultaneous explosions of roadside bombs, said Kimmitt. The explosions wounded three coalition soldiers who were treated for shrapnel-related injuries and returned to duty.
When the Iraqi Currency Exchange teams arrived at the Samarra bank, the bank came under small-arms and rocket- propelled-grenade fire from multiple directions, said Kimmitt. The fire was "determined to be coming from windows and roofs of nearby buildings as well as from alleyways and nearby vehicles," he added. Coalition forces returned fire to defeat the enemy. Two coalition soldiers and one ICE team member were wounded, said the general. He estimated 24 of the enemy were killed.
As coalition forces moved north out of the city, they encountered a barricade and enemy fire, with five more enemy killed, Kimmitt said.
At the second bank, in the western part of the city, coalition forces were also attacked with small arms and rocket propelled grenades.
"Initial reports showed at least 12 attackers all armed with AK-47s and RPGs were seen running out and firing on coalition forces from a nearby mosque," said Kimmitt. After engaging this initial wave, the friendly forces also "came under fire from enemy forces who were using nearby roofs, gates and walls as cover," he added.
In a separate incident, in another section of Samarra, four men in a black BMW ambushed another coalition convoy. The coalition returned fire, wounding and capturing all four men, confiscating three AK-47s and two RPGs. Kimmitt said five coalition soldiers received non-life-threatening injuries, while an estimated 54 enemy personnel were killed and another 22 were wounded.
When asked if enemy forces were becoming more sophisticated, Kimmitt replied, "Any enemy looking at eight tanks, four Bradley fighting vehicles and 93 coalition soldiers and still decides to fight is making a dreadful mistake."
What is sophisticated, added Dan Senor, senior CPA spokesperson, is the successful implementation of currency exchange. The campaign was announced in July and implemented in October. Seventy-five percent of the currency is in circulation, he said. "This is an incredible success story – a logistical success story – that is only possible with the cooperation between the coalition and the Iraqi people."
Senor noted that Ambassador L. Paul Bremer, CPA head, continues to work with the Iraqi Governing Council on the implementation of the Nov. 15 political agreement that lays the foundation for a "free, democratic and sovereign Iraq."
"The governing council took two very important steps yesterday (Nov. 30)," he added. This included setting up committees to look at the process in the drafting of the transitional administrative law as well as at the preparations necessary for the process of direct elections for the constitutional convention.
There is no safe haven in Iraq at the present. The terrorist, distractors are going to go wherever we try to reconstruct and try to destroy it. The bad guys have to be wiped out.
And a replay of Mogidishu.
Assuming the number of dead is correct, and the dead civilians are actually civilians, it would require at least one man to carry away each body, which would make a minimum of 108 attackers. More'n likely, if there were that many dead, there whould be a large number of wounded as well, making the total number of attackers even greater (and some of the wounded should have been severely wounded enough to require being carried away). And 54 men carrying 54 bodies away should have been rather noticeable from both the ground and the helicopters. Unless 100% of the civilians in the area were sympathizers, I would think a few of them would have noticed the body evacuation and informed us of it and where they were taken. And if the civilians in the area are 100% sympathetic to the fighters (or more afraid of them than us), we got big troubles ahead.
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