M-16 Rifle May Be on Way Out of U.S. Army

AP, Yahoo! ^ | 11-22-03 | Slobodan Lekic

[crz]

Ruger makes the Mini 30 which I understand uses the same round as the AKs. It also uses the garand action which is the best ever.

[StoneColdTaxHater]

Hate the Soviets but you gotta hand it to 'em the AK is one hell of a weapon.

[AngryJawa]

I don't doubt there are problems in implementation, but are these problems larger than the issues with the 5.56 round?

A Barrett at all times would be nice - especially with one of those Canadian snipers on the trigger. Was that a 2400 meter shot in Afstan? Unreal.

[Ex-Dem]

That a Steyr Aug? Any good?

[steppenwolffe]

AKs are more reliable functionally, but are less accurate and have less impressive terminal ballistics

I always thought the AK74 utilized the 223, or facsimile.

[RANGERAIRBORNE]

" when it comes to recoil but the Garand is a sweetheart in that respect."

To alleviate any concerns about "punishing recoil", my Drill Sergeant would take his M14 and place the buttplate on his crotch, then fire a few rounds downrange.

I always supected he was wearing an armored jock, but couldn't prove it...

[Southack]

I'd like to see all "obsolete" military M-16's sold at or below cost (hey, they're used) to U.S. civilians, rather than de-milled.

I'll take 2.

[duk]

Could'nt use the wire guided Dragon anti-tank gun in Alaska. They said the snow and many rivers/lakes would ground out the attached wire.

So we carried (2) 90mm recoiless anti-tank guns per platoon. We had HE, HEAT, WP, and anti-personnel rounds(Flechette). You think the M-60 was a PIG, I won't say what we called those 90's!

They gave us an advantage over small arms and dug in targets. When you fired one off, everyone ducked. Simple, and versatile, and it got the job done. All this old weaponary is still around and cheap, why not use it?

[Hugin]

Define "modest range"? The 5.56 is moderately efective out to maybe 500 yds. The 9mm is not very effective out to maybe 100 yds.

[BushMeister]

The 5.56mm round is not really the issue in the story at the top of this thread. In Iraq right now, the issues are the difficulty of bringing a 40" rifle to bear on a suddenly attacking enemy in an Urban environment, and the reliability of the M-16s mechanism in fine talcum-like sand.

The 5.56mm certainly isn't ideal, but it does have its advantages. It creates unusually nasty wounds due to the bullet design and high velocity of the rounds, but it is more easily deflected than heavier rounds, and has more trouble penetrating light cover. Check these links for info on the ballistic performance of 5.56mm rounds:

AR-15

Yes, that was some shot by the Canadian. I think it got him a U.S. medal, since he took some heat off of our soldiers.

Overall, I think the U.S. military will be more open to ideas like the ones you've expressed, as the likelihood of sustained, continuous and varied combat over the next decade or so will call for more inventive solutions. A less monolithic culture will hopefully allow the Army to more quickly adapt weapons and tactics that will maximize effectiveness.

[mcgredo]

The OICW has been pushed back, since they didn't think they could develop it in a reasonable amount of time. The likely replacement for the M16/M4 is the XM-8. It's a variation on the HK G36. See http://world.guns.ru/assault/as61-e.htm

There's also been some talk of adopting a 6.8 X 43mm round. It has the same overall length as the 5.56, so it can be used with existing rifle magazine wells and magazines. About a 110 grain bullet, and a trajectory that's fairly similar to the 5.56 over the first 150 yards.

[BushMeister]

The Ak-74 fires a round fairly similar to the 5.56mm.

Here's a link to photos:

AK74

Here'a a study about terminal ballitsics:

AK74performance

[xm177e2]

Consequently, the M-4 is an unlikely candidate for the rearming of the U.S. Army. It is now viewed as an interim solution until the introduction of a more advanced design known as the Objective Individual Combat Weapon, or OICW.

?

The OICW is a G36K with a massive, semi-automatic grenade launcher on top.

It is not the kind of weapon that will replace standard assault rifles any time soon.

[BushMeister]

Anyone wanting more info on the OICW can go here:

OICW

[Joee]

I think there will be few wet eyes in the house with the demise of the M16. During my military career, I carried the 03, the M1, the M14 and the M16. Never did trust the M16 and in Nam, I pulled a "midnight survey," upgrading my personal protection to the M14. At least I felt like I could "reach out and touch someone."

[Squantos]

They are already being "given" to Police Departments under the POTUS WOD Assistance Program.....aka ...POTUSWODAP....(no it doesn't have web feet and a duck bill )...check yer local LEO's cruisers.....:o)

CMP thang would be kewl indeed !

Stay Safe !

[meatloaf]

Springfield Armory sold a short barreled M1A1 years ago with a folding stock. With the stock folded it was a bit over 30" long. It would be dandy in close quarters. And a .30 caliber to boot rather than the poodle round.

[Bringbackthedraft]

Take an AK47 and refine it to the tenth degree and you get one of the finest made AK47s, a Valmet Sako 76F. Used by the Finnish Army. A real quality made item. Too bad they're so expensive. Remember, our weapons are made by the cheapest bidder.

[Eaker]

I'd like to see all "obsolete" military M-16's sold at or below cost (hey, they're used) to U.S. civilians, rather than de-milled.

I'll take 2.

I am kinda hard on weapons so I'll take 3!!!

Durn good idea!!!

[jonascord]

The Ruger Ranch rifle, while it employs a Garand style gas system, (more like a shrunk M-14 type, with a gas-driven piston hitting the end of the operating rod, which cams the bolt out of lock.) is chambered for the 5.56mm NATO. The AK-74, like all USSR leftovers, is chambered so it can either use Red Army issue ball, or captured NATO ammunition, same as the AK-47 could chamber and function with .308 Nato, and the USSR 82mm mortar could fire the NATO 81mm shell. While they could fire ours, we could not fire USSR issue. As to whether this was worth much is open to debate.
If my side has to depend on scrounged enemy ammo to fight, I'm going to question if I am on the winning side...