Of all the things to focus on, you choose this, falling into the trap of the idiot reporter who asked that intentionally divisive question.
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Posted on 11/20/2003 4:54:20 AM PST by truthandlife
I was watching the Tony Blair and President Bush press conference and an American reporter asked a question on the lines of do you believe Muslims and Christians worship the same God.
President Bush said that Christians and Muslims worship the same God!!!!
Yes, that's about the size of it. That is the position of the agnostic. An atheist claims to know. This is false- he cannot know. A person who claims to know there is a god- this is fair enough, I will not disagree with him that he knows of God or a god. But to this point in my life, I have no evidence that I find acceptable to convince me of the same.
Problem?
For years, Britain, and London in particular, has been a hub for Islamic radicals.
CBN.com – LONDON — Since 9/11, Britain has emerged as America's closest ally in the war against terrorism. Ironically, Britain is also a major base of operation for some of the most radical Islamic organizations, including some direct supporters of Osama bin Laden. At the heart of Britain's radical Islamic movement is a man named Mustafa Kamel, a.k.a. Abu Hamza al-Masri. An Egyptian cleric, Hamza is wanted by other countries for suspected terrorist activities. And the FBI is building a case against him and several of his associates.
Today, he spends his time in London running a group called "Supporters of Sharia." According to the SOS website, the goal is to replace secular rule and democracy with Sharia, a harsh form of Islamic law.
When CBN News asked Hamza if he wants to see Great Britain become a Muslim nation based on Sharia, he said, "The whole of the planet, not only Great Britain, because we are all a creation of god, we have to pay god his attributes, and follow his law."
Hamza, who has a metal hook on his right arm, lost both hands and an eye during a raid in Afghanistan 10 years ago. He believes a holy war is the only way to implement the laws of Allah in Britain. Included in this is a call for martyrdom.
"This is the only way you can prove yourself in front of god. Look, this is the dearest thing I have, is my life, if I had anything dearer than that, I would have given it to you. So being a martyr is an honor," Hamza said.
For years, Britain, and London in particular, has been a hub for Islamic radicals. Some anti-terrorism investigators have even called the British capital "Londonistan." Many fundamentalist groups find Britain, with its liberal immigration laws and tradition of free speech, to be a perfect base for their jihad against the West.
There are about two million Muslims living in Britain. About 48 percent of them live in London, and their numbers are growing fast.
Jay Smith, an American missionary to England, said, "The influence of Islam is growing dramatically for a number of reasons. First and foremost, they are doing an awful lot more than we are, than anybody else is to make sure that it grows. For that reason, people are hearing, people are listening, people are being influenced. They are converting right, left and center."
Religious experts have called London the evangelical hub of radical Islam in the West. Some see the conversion of England to Islam as an important strategy for winning Europe.
Omar Izzadeen and a number of other young men belong to a radical Muslim group called Al Muhajiroun. Their mission is to establish Al Khilafah, a global Islamic regime, starting here in Britain.
"Our message is to bring Islam to the world. Islam will conquer the White House, will conquer in Downing Street," Izzadeen said. "It means conquer, it means the Americans will live under Islam, like it or not. So will the UK."
On a Friday night, Izzadeen instructs the group to follow the example of the 19 hijackers of September 11th. He reminds them that it only took a "few good men" to bring terror to America.
"It really shook the Americans, a Superpower, shook by 19! And it showed their weakness. You see brothers, if people put their minds to something, they can do anything, and in particular, the believers," Izzadeen said.
While the majority of Muslims here have nothing to do with these radical groups, experts say Islam is becoming a major force to be reckoned with in Britain.
And for those who do not care to believe in their god, what are the consequences? Hamza said, "Well, if you live in my property and you don't pay me my rent, you get out! And Jihad is to get you out, this is the property of god, you don't worship him, you get out. How are you going to get out? You get killed!"
Did you notice that truthandlife used the word "could" in the statement you quoted, and not "will"?
Without evidence of God, there is no God in a person's life. It's like saying "I believe in God but I don't know why". Why would anyone believe in something so farfetched without any evidence?
I don't mean to pick on you. I'm picking on the argument. It looks like you are getting piled on so I'll duck out.
I didn't realize I was struggling with anything.
Let's break it down for you: First, Muslims deny the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ; such a belief is blasphemous to them. Second, President Bush, an avowed Christian, has nevertheless proclaimed that Muslims worship the same God that Christians do. Third, (ignore that mincing, pinching lobster in your shorts), Bush is straightly implying that Muslims acknowldge the divinity and resurrection of Jesus Christ. Therefore, and fourth, Bush has not commended Muslims--he has accused them of blasphemy.
Again, the wiser position for Bush to have taken is: "I know which God I worship. Let each man judge for himself which god, if any, he worships. Whatever that answer, let each man strive to live at peace with his neighbor."
Instead, he makes a silly "ex cathedra" proclamation to the world that is not only false as to both religions, but insulting to the religious believers he is seeking to placate.
I believe that even you could have handled the question with better circumspection. But then you would have found some other way to insult them.
But I don't have a god.
Debate your moral relativistic statements about religion? You must first give us something to debate other than your misguided opinion.
For example, let's look at your statement, "Jews, Christians (Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, etc), Muslims all worship the same God. You may not like it, but it's true.
You state it is true, but you show no proof? Please show us your proof. Try to avoid using your misguided opinion as proof (as you have done in multiple posts).
If you deny that the God of the Muslims is the God of the Christians then you must deny that the God of the Catholics is the God of the Baptists or the Mormons or the adventists."
That statement is so stupid it is laughable. And you want us to debate it?
Of all the things to focus on, you choose this, falling into the trap of the idiot reporter who asked that intentionally divisive question.
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LOL. No, not afraid. I don't believe atheists have a leg to stand on. If there be a god of some sort and it was demonstrated to me, I would have no problem at all accepting that fact and living with it. It would not offend me at all. In fact, I think I would quite welcome it.
I don't mean to pick on you.
I didn't realize you were picking on me.
It looks like you are getting piled on so I'll duck out.
I quite enjoy this conversation. I am not welcome on the Crevo threads because I reject science as an argumentational pillar. God, for me, is a philosophical issue. I do not need science in this regard. But I still need something to work with.
BTW there is a prophecy that at some point, their eyes will be opened and they will 'weep for the one they pierced as for a firstborn son.'
Zechariah 12
9 On that day I will set out to destroy all the nations that attack Jerusalem.
Mourning for the One They Pierced
10 "And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. 11 On that day the weeping in Jerusalem will be great, like the weeping of Hadad Rimmon in the plain of Megiddo.
And yes, I know this is offensive for Jews right now - and it is in their own Scriptures, not the Chrsitian New Testament. But that's what Christians believe it means.
Well if evos were honest, they'd admit evolution is a philosophical issue too. Sounds like you're on the right track though with that. So, you're saying you're agnostic with regard to the nature of God, but you believe something must be out there?
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Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88:
Narrated 'Ursa:
The Prophet wrote the (marriage contract) with 'Aisha while she was six years old and consummated his marriage with her while she was nine years old and she remained with him for nine years (i.e. till his death).
Well, hey, can you blame them? The prognosis for atheism is pretty bleak! ;-)
I had a two year email discussion with a very nice atheist who eventually came around to admitting atheism was intellectually dishonest, and that [I'm assuming due to our discussion,] he had moved back to agnosticism. I considered that about as much as I could do. :-)
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