New analysis suggests there was no second gunman in JFK assassination

Associated Press ^ | 11/19/2003 | MARTIN FINUCANE

[DonQ]

The Grassy Knoll (it got this sobriquet from an offhand description by one of the eyewitness accounts of the assassination) is probably one place where a shot COULD NOT have come from. First, it was, at the time, crowded with onlookers (judging from the films of the event, averaging about one person every six feet), none of whom reported either seeing someone with a gun or hearing a shot from behind or very close to them. Second, the knoll was flanked by a fence and a railway yard, and there were railroad workers watching the motorcade from behind the fence, and even from elevated spots well behind the fence, and they saw nothing of a gunman. Third, the position of the knoll itself meant that a sniper located there would have had to use special bullets that loop-the-loop because he would not have had a straight line shot at JFK but would have had to shoot through somebody or something.

At one point in the Clay Shaw trial D.A. Jim Garrison tried to show, from a film of the assassination, that there was a gunman on the grassy knoll: It turned out that his "evidence" consisted of a grainy shadowy blob, apparently hiding behind a tree, on only one frame of the film (about the duration of one heartbeat) -- but it wasn't on and of the frames before or after, and the tree it was "hiding" behind was no thicker than a man's wrist, and the blob itself looked so much unlike a normal person that anyone looking like that would have been remembered by eyewitnesses.

[tkathy]

My brother, who had top secret clearance for years, and worked on the moon shots, is fond of saying that the concept of a massive government conspiracy is ridiculous. Coverups of blunders is more like it. The government workers are way too incompetent and concerned for their house payments and car payments to ever engage in any such nonsense.

[South Dakota]

>>>>>>>>>>Third, the position of the knoll itself meant that a sniper located there would have had to use special bullets that loop-the-loop because he would not have had a straight line shot at JFK but would have had to shoot through somebody or something.<<<<<<<<<

Does this account for the statement by some that there was a bullet hole in the windshield of the car?

[wideminded]

The Grassy Knoll (it got this sobriquet from an offhand description by one of the eyewitness accounts of the assassination) is probably one place where a shot COULD NOT have come from.

My son recently pointed out to me, in a state of amusement, that the word "knoll" is never heard in any other context.

[Ssrn53]

The Zapruder film is proof alone that their had to be at least one other gunman than the one (probably not even Oswald) in the school book depository. Kennedy's head was immediately knocked backwards and to the left by the impact of the head shot. Indicating the shot must have come somewhere from the front and to the side. J. Edgar Hoover was in control of the Warren comission and that immediately destroys their credibility. The magic bullet theory is so rediculous that even someone not familiar with guns can see through it. How did the police get a complete discription of Oswald within fifteen minutes of the assasination? No records of Oswald's hours long interrogation. Then after he leaves the interrogation he is conviently killed to keep his mouth shut. The whole thing is shady. Just like the King assaination.

If there was conspiracy you can rule out mafia as being the only ones behind it because they may have the ability to kill Kennedy but they don't have the ability to cover it up. It would take several key government officials to pull it off. These people would have to be in on it in some way: J.Edgar Hoover, Lyndon Johnson, and whoever was the head of the CIA at the time. These people would be needed to cover it up effectively. All of them had motive. The idea that there was no conspiracy is rediculous.

[marshmallow]

It was a masterpiece of planning. Oswald organized it to look like a one man job on the surface but with just enough fragmentary evidence to appear like a multi-person job when one looked a little more closely. In other words, it was a conspiracy (with himself) to make it look like a conspiracy. Perfect! The greatest conspiracy of all.

Y'all following where I'm going here?

Me neither.

[DonQ]

Does this account for the statement by some that there was a bullet hole in the windshield of the car?

Hardly a "statement", maybe a rumor or a myth. The entire car, including its windshield, were examined for bullet fragments and there is a small blemish in the windshield - definitely not a hole - where it was chipped by something, perhaps a bullet fragment, which did not go through. There is a photo of this blemish in the multivolume published records of the Warren Commission. If I remember correctly, the chip was on the inside of the windshield.

[mlo]

Does this account for the statement by some that there was a bullet hole in the windshield of the car?

There are pictures of the car, and its windshield, before it gets to Parkland Hospital. A bullet fragment struck the windshield on the inside, but did not penetrate. The hole does not go through.

That's what happens when people rely solely on someone's statements.

[mlo]

The Zapruder film is proof alone that their had to be at least one other gunman than the one (probably not even Oswald) in the school book depository. Kennedy's head was immediately knocked backwards and to the left by the impact of the head shot.

Wrong. Your mistake is assuming that his motion HAD to be imparted by a bullet. It didn't.

[BOOTSTICK]

Film evidence trumps audio evidence. Sorry, please try agian.

[CollegeRepublican]

Web Definition: knoll - a small natural hill

If I see a hill, I will call it a hill. I have also wondered why they call it a knoll. Does it sound more ominous?

[mlo]

Film evidence trumps audio evidence. Sorry, please try agian.

They aren't in conflict.

[dubyagee]

How did the police get a complete discription of Oswald within fifteen minutes of the assasination?

That is a question that has been bugging me over the last several days. Are there any records of witnesses giving a description? If he was in the lunch room a minute and a half later, cool as a cucumber, why would anyone suspect him? If the description came from people who saw him in the window, how do they get details such as height and weight from this? If people saw him shooting wouldn't some hero types have gone it after him? Anyway...just one of things that bugs me. Any info on this is greatly appreciated.

[DonQ]

How did the police happen to get a description of Oswald ...?

Several witnesses pointed police to the schoolbook depository bldg, whose employees had mostly stopped work to watch the motorcade. The supervisors immediately began to take roll of who was there, and the only person missing was Oswald.

I am not absolutely clear on how soon and how detailed the bulletin for Oswald was. About 90 minutes after killing JFK, he encountered policeman J.D. Tippett on the street and killed him -- why has never been explained, my theory is that Tippett (who was posted in a quiet part of Dallas, far from the scene of the assassination) merely asked this stranger if there had been any additional news on the radio or TV and Oswald panicked. There were eyewitnesses to the Tippett shooting, who immediately directed police to the movie theatre where Oswald had run.

[Ssrn53]

Okay what else would move Kennedy's head back in violent fashion at the EXACT same time his head exploded. Did you see the Zapruder film? Watch it again. His head didn't move back before the head shot or after the head shot. It moved back violently at the exact time of impact. secondly the shot which penetrated his NECK from behind caused his body to move FOWARD. Now if a shot through his neck (and not his head) from behind caused his body to move foward, don't you think a more serious wound by a high powered rifle to his head from behind would cause his head to move foward also?
But it didn't, It moved violently backwards at the same time of impact. That's not possible.

If you still don't believe it, we can agree that we disagree. Watch the Zapruder film again.

[Maria S]

The 2-hour Peter Jennings special last night debunked many of the conspiracy theories, and concluded that Oswald was the lone shooter.

An interesting segment, IMO, discussed the 1991 Oliver Stone movie starring Kevin Costner. In the words of Robert Goldberg, who wrote 'Enemies Within':

"No book or program has done more to promote the JFK conspiracy theory...[than the Oliver Stone movie]. Stone has convinced me that the most powerful historians of the 20th century are filmmakers. It is these images [from the movie] that we remember. Most Americans know of the Kennedy assassination through Oliver Stone's mind and Oliver Stone's images."

Jack Valenti, aide to LBJ said, similarly: "[The movie] was a package of unfathomable lies packaged together with a cinematic artist's great skill that was a blending and a mélange of real photographs and fictional scenes merged together with such skill that you were unable to tell the difference." He was very disdainful of Stone's claims of "dramatic license."

I would hope Barbra Streisand would begin to understand WHY so many people were upset at the "dramatic license" taken with the Reagan movie. And SOMEBODY might suggest to that fat slob, Moore, that he return his oscar for 'Bowling for Columbine.' In both cases, will my suggestions be taken...NO!

One further comment; I think "Stone has convinced me that the most powerful historians of the 20th century are filmmakers" is right on target. Liberal movie makers are making the majority of historical stuff now...and THEIR twist and delivery of historical figures are what young people will judge to be accurate.

[mlo]

Okay what else would move Kennedy's head back in violent fashion at the EXACT same time his head exploded. Did you see the Zapruder film?

More times than I could count, and it's always been clear to me that the motion is not from the impact of a bullet. I guess it depends on one's expectations.

Bullets throwing people around is a Hollywood effect. In real life, super-sonic bullets move too fast and have such a small cross-section that they penetrate and pass through, imparting relativley little momentum to the body.

A rifle bullet also creates a "pressure cavity" inside the body. In Kennedy's case the bullet penetrated the rear skull and exited the front. The pressure cavity caused by its passage built up the internal pressure of the skull until it literally exploded. Like any explosion, there is an equal and opposite reaction from the direction of the expelled material. The ejected material went toward the front.

Also, Kennedy was not an inanimate object. He was a living human being. He was leaning forward at the time he was shot in the head. Why would you think he couldn't have simply jerked backwards?

It moved back violently at the exact time of impact.

Not really. The head moves slightly *forward* at the moment of impact, then the head and his upper body move backward after the head explodes and the bullet is long gone.

secondly the shot which penetrated his NECK from behind caused his body to move FOWARD

There is no such visible reaction at the time of the neck shot. That was just as he came out from behind the sign.

[shootergrassyknoll]

A black kid (name ?) told police he saw a rifle in the window and a construction worker( name? )gave police a description of the man in the window. A APB went out shortly after. Type in Dallas police tapes/JFK on the INTERNET and listen to what was going on at that time! If this guy Lovelady looked so much like Oswald, why wasn't he arrested as a suspect! On the tapes, a squad car reports ( after the Tippet shooting and a wittness in the police car)that they chased a suspect into a library, this guy was running down the street with a black colored automatic hand gun. A short time later, it was reported that the suspect was let go, wrong guy! I'm not making this up,its on the tapes! Also a police officer reports from the Tippet scene, that empty shell casings were found and they are from a .38 automatic weapon and not a revolver. To me, it sounds like they were looking for a specific guy and not just a general description!

[squidly]

the concept of a massive government conspiracy is ridiculous. Coverups of blunders is more like it.

There's a pretty good theory out there, published by an ex-Secret Service agent I believe, that the "magic bullet" was neither magic nor from the Grassy Knoll. It was fired by mistake into JFK by one of the agents behind him when he drew his gun, or so the theory goes.