French Milan Missile may have Knocked Out U.S. Tank (my title)

SciScoop ^ | 10/31/03 | Sciscoop

[fourscore]

http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/11/3/171841/084

The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world. It weighs just shy of 70 tons and much of that weight is armor to protect the vehicle and its crew. There are two main threats against a tank: HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds and KE (Kinetic Energy) rounds. To greatly oversimplify, HEAT rounds produce a blob of super-hot molten metal that cuts through armor like a torch; KE rounds have long, slender dart-like projectiles that punch through armor like a bullet. The structural armor of the tank is designed to stop KE rounds and is based on the so-called "Chobham armor" technology developed by the British. This is basically a sandwich of steel and depleated uranium plates, ceramics, and plastic composite honeycomb. When hit by a anti-tank KE projectile, the ceramic and composite components vaporize so violently they actually push an incoming dart back out the way it came in before it is able to fully penetrate the armor plating. Attached to the outside of the M1A1 is a second type of armor called reactive armor, basically boxes of steel plated explosives that are intended to disrupt the molten plasma jets created by HEAT rounds before they can get to the vulnerable structural armor. Obviously the offense-defense aspects of protecting and penetrating tank armor have been given a great deal of thought by the U.S. military and has resulted in the M1A1 having a virtually perfect record as being unstoppable in combat. That is, until last August 28. On that date, something disabled an M1A1 tank in Baghdad, and the U.S. Army is still trying to figure out what it was.

As reported in Army Times: The incident is so sensitive that most experts in the field would talk only on the condition that they not be identified. According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicle's skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that "my little finger will not go into it," the report's author noted.

The "something" continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner's seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunner's flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1½ to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank.

As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made the tank one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of "mobility kills" since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. The other Abrams knocked out this year in Iraq was hit by an RPG-7, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new -- and that worries tank drivers.

"The unit is very anxious to have this `SOMETHING' identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves."

"It's a real strange impact," said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. "This is a new one. ... It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7" anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.

In the end, a civilian weapons expert said, "I hope it was a lucky shot and we are not part of someone's test program. Being a live target is no fun."

[JasonC]

Learn about the long history of HEAT

There is an enourmous amount of simple ignorance about this subject, it would seem. High explosive anti tank technology is not new. It is a standard, WW II era technology. It is not French. It does not take a Milan to do this.

[bonesmccoy]

Thanks for the explanation... when Hackworth talks, I like what he says... I give his statements great credibility.

[archy]

There's an interesting idea...but Milan has a VERY healthy warhead. I'd hate to be the first schmuck to have to fire the thing. (Imagine the kit-bashed round getting maybe two or three feet downrange--and then nosing over and hitting the ground with a loud "KABOOM!")

The Israeli terminology for such an unintended result is a *work accident.* The Brits refer to an *Own Goal* or to the operator being *Hoist with his own petard.*

-archy-/-

[SLB]

Obviously a nuclear powered, super duper high velocity, tank killing, homing all the way to the target, round from the newly developed and 100% functional Stryker Mobile Gun System. This must have been some type of highly classified test the army was conducting.

That explanation is as good as any others I have seen on this or the other posts on this subject. When will folks start to realize the Abrams is NOT invulnerable? There are some "sweet spots" and this happened to get one of them. A couple of inches in any direction and the pictures might not have even made the news.

I just love all of the armor experts spouting their theories here and on the evening news. Why are they not here at Ft Knox helping? Why have they not been contacted by the Army to help? Gosh, could it be because they are blowing smoke? Go figure!

[A Simple Soldier]

It is impossible. Two vastly different systems with vastly different technical employment and operating procedures and tactics.

Check some of the links on this thread for photos and tech specs.

Remember this though, regarding your theory; Professionals are predictable, but the world is full of amateurs. Your theory may not be totally out to lunch.

[shamusotoole]

First, I agree with your statement that the two weapons do not seem to be marriagable because of tech, procedures and tactics. The evidence of my eyes, explained in my next previous post, which includes looking at a Milan scaled against a human, and a recollection of video footage of a dud RPG tells me we are roughly in the ballpark, according to my common sense.

The way I look at it is that you have to explain the pencil hole, which to me is "Milan-like". Next you have to explain the close quarters of a city street or alley which would indicate a short range delivery system and short (or 0') arming time/distance. The sighting could be visual.

The real test of whether this is possible lies in the weight of the projectile, and foot pounds of thrust necessary to go halfway across a street with sufficient force to trigger a contact fuse.

That's where I need help. I've never shot an RPG or a TOW(sp?) I don't really know if a Milan 2, 2b, or 3 have contact fuzes or whether the time/distance arming function can be bypassed. But experts know.

I can also think of a scenario in which a Milan could be used. Suppose you could arm it, bypassing the time/ distance delay. The first stage of the two stage system would deliver everything to the center of a street without the second stage, with enough inertia to detonate the contact fuze, if it has one.

Construction materials, such as bags of cement or sand could camouflage a weapon by the side of the road, and reliably pre-aim it, much the way a rifle might be 'sighted-in'. So the throwing distance could be cut down, as well as making aiming more point blank. If fired remotely, the shooter might meet the Virgins tomorrow and not today.

Please disprove me!

[Centurion2000]

The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world

Not.

Until the Germans decide to invade Poland again we'll never know which on is better the Abrams or the Leopard.

I'll put my money on the Americans and the Abrams. At least the Americans have a nice proven track record for victory.

[mark502inf]

Actually, didn't Yugoslavia have ties with both Iraq and Libya dating back to the 1970s, at least?

They do go way back. Tito developed a domestic arms industry to free him from dependence on the Soviets or us. Then they started to export and Africa and the mid-East provided lots of customers, to include Libya and Iraq. Under Milosevic, those relations continued even while both countries were under sanctions & supporting terrorists. At the same time Slobo & the Serb nationalists were trying to sell their Balkans depredations as some kind of war against radical Islamists. And there are many, to include some FReepers, who have bought that B.S.

[Jacob Kell]

"At the same time Slobo & the Serb nationalists were trying to sell their Balkans depredations as some kind of war against radical Islamists."

Didn't the Croats basically do the same thing?

Also, Yugoslav-made weaponry was used by the El Salvadorian FMLN during the civil war back in the 80's and early 90's, so Africa and the Arab world certainly weren't their only clients.

[colorado tanker]

I doubt Ft. Knox will ever publicly say what that weapon was. Why let our enemies know how and where they can successfully hit an M-1 ?

[Paul Ross]

Not.

Okay, with the exception of a few Germans who still have not really appreciated what an Abrams can do...that their machines can't. Which is a lot.

[mark502inf]

"At the same time Slobo & the Serb nationalists were trying to sell their Balkans depredations as some kind of war against radical Islamists."

Didn't the Croats basically do the same thing?

Actually, the heaviest fighting the Croats did was against the Serbs. Initially, the Croats & Bosniaks were allied against the Serbs. Excerpt from a Balkans Times story of today:

Croatia's Mesic Calls on Serb Refugees to Return ATHENS, Greece -- Launching a three-day visit to Greece on Tuesday (18 November), Croatian President Stipe Mesic called on all Serb refugees to return home. During a news conference with his Greek counterpart, Costis Stephanopoulos, Mesic said that Croatia is a safe country governed by the rule of law, and that the government is committed to returning to the refugees the property they once owned. . . In other news, several thousand people gathered in Vukovar, Croatia to mark the 12th anniversary of the town's fall to Serb forces. An estimated 1,600 people were killed during the three-month siege. (AFP, ANA, MPA, Makfax - 18/11/03)

[Yasotay]

Even if you can state a tank better then the Abrams, what is far more important, is the tank crew! NO ONE has better tank crews then the US Army .... bar none.

[anotherGerman]

Not true again. There have been several NATO exercises with different nations coming out on top. But most of the time it were NOT the Americans. I think the best on average were the DUTCH (VERY impressive tank force), followed by the Germans. It is very nice how you Americans assume you are best at everything. You could at least leave us the tanks, since you are better than Germany at almost all other military hardware ;-) Bar Rifles that is.

[anotherGerman]

Please enlighten me - what would that be. There was a recent study by an American company ranking the world´s MBTs - the Leopard came out on top, SLIGHTLY in front of the M1. I will look it up if you wish to read it.

[anotherGerman]

As mentioned before in the only public study comparing MBTs, the Leopard came out the top dog. I wouldn´t put my money on the Abrams or the Leopard, I would put it onto the better crew. Western MBTs are all pretty even. So this is why it is WRONG to say "Abrams widely regarded as the best."

[anotherGerman]

I am not saying that there necessarily is a better one, since Western MBTs are all very equal (heck, even the French managed to produce a decent one, even though I am no fan of auto loaders). So it is just wrong to suggest the Abrams is "widely regarded as the best." It is not. The only study I know comes out with the German Leopard as a winner.

[Poohbah]

As mentioned before in the only public study comparing MBTs, the Leopard came out the top dog.

IIRC, that study was funded by Kraus Maffei.

[anotherGerman]

Hehe true, I think the Abrams has proven itself. IMO it has especially proven the fact how advanced modern MBTs are compared to inferior outdated designs. Until the Abrams (or any other modern MBT) fights another modern MBT, we will never really know which one´s better. I guess they are pretty even.

[anotherGerman]

See the answers I just gave.

For instance, the Abrams uses the now old Leopard II gun (still a hell of a gun!), while the new L2A6 uses an enhanced gun to make up for the US use of DU.