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French Milan Missile may have Knocked Out U.S. Tank (my title)
SciScoop ^ | 10/31/03 | Sciscoop

Posted on 11/18/2003 2:35:56 PM PST by fourscore

http://www.sciscoop.com/story/2003/11/3/171841/084

The M1A1 Abrams tank is widely acknowledged to be the best tank in the world. It weighs just shy of 70 tons and much of that weight is armor to protect the vehicle and its crew. There are two main threats against a tank: HEAT (High Explosive Anti-Tank) rounds and KE (Kinetic Energy) rounds. To greatly oversimplify, HEAT rounds produce a blob of super-hot molten metal that cuts through armor like a torch; KE rounds have long, slender dart-like projectiles that punch through armor like a bullet. The structural armor of the tank is designed to stop KE rounds and is based on the so-called "Chobham armor" technology developed by the British. This is basically a sandwich of steel and depleated uranium plates, ceramics, and plastic composite honeycomb. When hit by a anti-tank KE projectile, the ceramic and composite components vaporize so violently they actually push an incoming dart back out the way it came in before it is able to fully penetrate the armor plating. Attached to the outside of the M1A1 is a second type of armor called reactive armor, basically boxes of steel plated explosives that are intended to disrupt the molten plasma jets created by HEAT rounds before they can get to the vulnerable structural armor. Obviously the offense-defense aspects of protecting and penetrating tank armor have been given a great deal of thought by the U.S. military and has resulted in the M1A1 having a virtually perfect record as being unstoppable in combat. That is, until last August 28. On that date, something disabled an M1A1 tank in Baghdad, and the U.S. Army is still trying to figure out what it was.

As reported in Army Times: The incident is so sensitive that most experts in the field would talk only on the condition that they not be identified. According to an unclassified Army report, the mystery projectile punched through the vehicle's skirt and drilled a pencil-sized hole through the hull. The hole was so small that "my little finger will not go into it," the report's author noted.

The "something" continued into the crew compartment, where it passed through the gunner's seatback, grazed the kidney area of the gunner's flak jacket and finally came to rest after boring a hole 1½ to 2 inches deep in the hull on the far side of the tank.

As it passed through the interior, it hit enough critical components to knock the tank out of action. That made the tank one of only two Abrams disabled by enemy fire during the Iraq war and one of only a handful of "mobility kills" since they first rumbled onto the scene 20 years ago. The other Abrams knocked out this year in Iraq was hit by an RPG-7, a rocket-propelled grenade.

Experts believe whatever it is that knocked out the tank in August was not an RPG-7 but most likely something new -- and that worries tank drivers.

"The unit is very anxious to have this `SOMETHING' identified. It seems clear that a penetrator of a yellow molten metal is what caused the damage, but what weapon fires such a round and precisely what sort of round is it? The bad guys are using something unknown and the guys facing it want very much to know what it is and how they can defend themselves."

"It's a real strange impact," said a source who has worked both as a tank designer and as an anti-tank weapons engineer. "This is a new one. ... It almost definitely is a hollow-charge warhead of some sort, but probably not an RPG-7" anti-tank rocket-propelled grenade.

In the end, a civilian weapons expert said, "I hope it was a lucky shot and we are not part of someone's test program. Being a live target is no fun."


TOPICS: Foreign Affairs; News/Current Events
KEYWORDS: abrams; abramstanks; france; iraq; m1a1; milanantitank; miltech; mysteryweapon
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To: rightofthefairway
I've put some really clean holes in some pretty thick steal with 12.7 x 99mm (nato) before but much still gonna be thicker than a pinky finger??

Not all of them.

The Chinese Type 84 armour piercing discarding sabot round for the Soviet 12.7x108mm AA tank heavy MG, for instance. Or these:


41 posted on 11/18/2003 4:02:45 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Poohbah
Too close, and any hit is just plain dumb luck.

Too close and you just point the weapon at the target.

42 posted on 11/18/2003 4:04:16 PM PST by cinFLA
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To: cinFLA
Too close and you just point the weapon at the target.

And it will almost certainly miss. SACLOS ATGMs have a pI (probability of on-target impact) of about 0.05 inside their minimum range.

43 posted on 11/18/2003 4:11:05 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Poohbah
I am completely ignorant of these weapons, only logical. We seem to have a short range delivery ststem like an RPG with a home rigged Milan warhead. If impossible, I will shut up forever on the subject.
44 posted on 11/18/2003 4:13:05 PM PST by shamusotoole
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To: glorgau
But if you look at the location of the hit (center mass), that is indicative of a stand off shot. Operators are trained to aim for center mass. A close in shot from an RPG would probably go for a mobility kill (take out the engine, or rear sprocket) instead of going for the well protected crew compartment.

I've fired RPG7s at tanks, hitting tracks and sprockets with little effect other than to burn a half-inch hole through track shoes and maybe blow off the rubber track block pads. the more usual aiming point is the third support roller, but the Abrams skirt protects that helpful target, not that it helped the crew much in this case. A much better target on an Abrams is the engine compartment from behind, offering at least a chance at a mobility kill from damage to the turbine or final drive [or setting the air cleaner assembly afire] or the bustle rack and APU at the back of the turret in hopes of detonating the rounds stored inside- not likely, unless you've got one of the *magic bullets* used in the example under discussion.

The idea of our 5-million dollar M1A2 SEP and M1A1-D tanks being killed by a $35 RPG-7D rocket launcher is unsettling, to say the least.

-archy-/-

45 posted on 11/18/2003 4:13:42 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: shamusotoole
There's an interesting idea...but Milan has a VERY healthy warhead. I'd hate to be the first schmuck to have to fire the thing. (Imagine the kit-bashed round getting maybe two or three feet downrange--and then nosing over and hitting the ground with a loud "KABOOM!")
46 posted on 11/18/2003 4:14:52 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: Cannoneer No. 4
Stickin to my AT4 Spigot SWAG !............Stay Safe and Thanks for the information Numbah four !
47 posted on 11/18/2003 4:23:35 PM PST by Squantos (Support Mental Health !........or........ I"LL KILL YOU !!!!)
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To: archy; Matthew James
The idea of our 5-million dollar M1A2 SEP and M1A1-D tanks being killed by a $35 RPG-7D rocket launcher is unsettling, to say the least.

Back to "boots on the ground!"

48 posted on 11/18/2003 4:29:54 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: fourscore
Do or did the South Africans really hate the Serbs, and if so, why? Was the ANC in charge back then?
49 posted on 11/18/2003 4:32:57 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Jacob Kell
To hear some folks on FR tell it, EVERYONE but the Serbs are part of the VWWCAATS (Vast World-Wide Conspiracy Against All Things Serbian).
50 posted on 11/18/2003 4:37:55 PM PST by Poohbah ("Would you mind not shooting at the thermonuclear weapons?" -- Major Vic Deakins, USAF)
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To: archy; Cannoneer No. 4
I did a quick search and it looks like there are thousands of Milans all over Europe and the Middle East. One report that the Poles found some Milans in Iraq.
51 posted on 11/18/2003 4:51:14 PM PST by colorado tanker ("There are but two parties now, Traitors and Patriots")
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To: All
"Something" felled an M1A1 Abrams tank in Iraq - but what?
52 posted on 11/18/2003 5:14:57 PM PST by Cannoneer No. 4 (God is not on the side with the biggest battalions. God is on the side with the best shots.)
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To: Travis McGee; archy
The idea of our 5-million dollar M1A2 SEP and M1A1-D tanks being killed by a $35 RPG-7D rocket launcher is unsettling, to say the least.

Kipling felt the same way.

Don't remember the exact line but something about,

"A hundred pounds worth of private school education falls to a three ruppee slug."

It ain't a new feeling.
53 posted on 11/18/2003 6:01:21 PM PST by tet68 ( Patrick Henry ......."Who fears the wrath of cowards?")
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To: Poohbah
I like your version best.

RAH lives!
54 posted on 11/18/2003 6:24:44 PM PST by ASOC
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To: tet68
Kipling felt the same way.

Don't remember the exact line but something about,

"A hundred pounds worth of private school education falls to a three ruppee slug."

Kipling neatly described a particular time and set of circumstances and yet did so in a manner that's both universal and timeless. It's not the same one you reference, but your quote recalled that in The Ballad of Boh da Thone we are told that:

The wind of the dawn went merrily past,
The high grass bowed her plumes to the blast.

And out of the grass, on a sudden, broke
A spirtle of fire, a whorl of smoke—

And Captain O’Neil of the Black Tyrone
Was blessed with a slug in the ulnar-bone—
The gift of his enemy Boh Da Thone.

(Now a slug that is hammered from telegraph-wire
Is a thorn in the flesh and a rankling fire.)

55 posted on 11/18/2003 7:10:25 PM PST by archy (Angiloj! Mia kusenveturilo estas plena da angiloj!)
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To: Jacob Kell
Don't know about what S. Africa thought of Serbia, but we do know that Milosevic's Yugoslavia & its successor Serbian entities were selling weaponry to include explosives for use in artillery shells, rocket fuel, cruise missile technology, maintenance assistance and even military and defense technology advisers throughout the 90s and right on up to 2002; all in violation of international sanctions and in direct opposition to U.S. interests. Possible that American soldiers have been killed or maimed in Iraq with explosives provided by the Serbs. The Yugos/Serbs have done much the same with Qaddafi's Libya, so who knows how much stuff has gone further to Al Qaeda and other terrorist groups.

The U.S. government has protested and Kostunica has been doing his best to get this under control, but corruption & anti-American attitudes among Milosevic hold-overs have made it tough to root it all out. Under Milosevic, Serbia was an enemy of the USA and a friend to our enemies.

56 posted on 11/18/2003 7:59:40 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: mark502inf
above message references Serbian arms sales to Hussein's Iraq.
57 posted on 11/18/2003 8:04:15 PM PST by mark502inf
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To: archy; tet68
Can't we just let robots occupy Iraq? Patrol it with UAVs?

;^)

58 posted on 11/18/2003 8:22:58 PM PST by Travis McGee (----- www.EnemiesForeignAndDomestic.com -----)
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To: mark502inf
Actually, didn't Yugoslavia have ties with both Iraq and Libya dating back to the 1970s, at least?
59 posted on 11/18/2003 9:38:51 PM PST by Jacob Kell
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To: Poohbah
The Milan 2,2t or 3s are bigger but are not behemouth. In video footage footage shot during the Battle of Baghdad, a dud RPG was shot at an armored vehicle. It caromed off the vehicle with a lot of oomph.

If I did not care about my life, I would remove an RPG payload and duct tape or super glue an armed Milan warhead to an RPG. That would solve the 400m problem. It doesnt need to go too far on the shot, so aiming is not too big a problem. If I miss or if it hits the deck after 3 feet, I'm in "Virgin" territory anyway.
60 posted on 11/18/2003 9:41:22 PM PST by shamusotoole
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