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Debunking the Israeli 'women in combat' myth
World Net Daily ^ | 8/2/01 | Jon Dougherty

Posted on 11/13/2003 10:01:03 AM PST by Mr. Mojo

Despite 225 years of witnessing the horror of wars fought by male American soldiers, there are still a number of idiots – mostly feminists who themselves will never have to face an armed enemy soldier – pushing lawmakers to drop a ban against allowing women in combat.

Israel – a nation of about 6.2 million people constantly at war with its neighbors – allowed women in combat, the idiots shriek. Why, then, must the American military, as regards ground combat roles, remain so androcentric, so "male-centered"?

It's time to debunk the myth, once and for all, that Israel's experience with allowing women in combat was successful and, therefore, should be duplicated by the Pentagon. It wasn't successful. It was a disaster by Israel's own admission.

"History shows that the presence of women has had a devastating impact on the effectiveness of men in battle," wrote John Luddy in July 27, 1994, for the Heritage Foundation backgrounder.

"For example, it is a common misperception that Israel allows women in combat units. In fact, women have been barred from combat in Israel since 1950, when a review of the 1948 Arab-Israeli War showed how harmful their presence could be. The study revealed that men tried to protect and assist women rather than continue their attack. As a result, they not only put their own lives in greater danger, but also jeopardized the survival of the entire unit. The study further revealed that unit morale was damaged when men saw women killed and maimed on the battlefield," Luddy said.

Writes Edward Norton, a reservist in the Israel Defense Forces: "Women have always played an important role in the Israeli military, but they rarely see combat; if they do, it is usually by accident. No one in Israel, including feminists, has any objection to this situation. The fact that the Persian Gulf War has produced calls to allow women on the front lines proves only how atypical that war was and how little Americans really understand combat."

"Few serious armies use women in combat roles. Israel, which drafts most of its young women and uses them in all kinds of military work, has learned from experience to take them out of combat zones. Tests show that few women have the upper-body strength required for combat tasks. Keeping combat forces all male would not be discriminatory, as were earlier racial segregation schemes in the military, because men and women are different both physically and psychologically," said the Feb. 5, 1990, National Review.

Furthermore, Israeli historian Martin Van Creveld has written extensively about the failure of the IDF to successfully integrate and use women in combat.

Finally, even Israeli citizens don't relish the thought of allowing their women into combat roles. In 1998, a survey conducted by the Jerusalem Post newspaper found that 56 percent of Israelis don't want women in combat.

There are now and always will be idiots who say the Pentagon should put women in any combat unit they wish to serve. Most of these people will speak with the ignorance of never having had to experience the horror of combat, as well as the luxury of never having to worry about engaging in armed conflict themselves.

But to use the "Israeli experience" as an allegedly successful model for the U.S. to follow is not only absurd, it's disingenuous. It is a lie propagated by radical feminists like ex-Democratic Rep. Patricia Schroeder who have falsely claimed that such a goal is merely an extension of "the will of the people."

Perhaps if more lawmakers – and Americans in general – were exposed to military service, the idiots who seem to be dominating this debate wouldn't have many sympathetic ears.


TOPICS: Culture/Society; Foreign Affairs
KEYWORDS: israel; myth; womenincombat
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1 posted on 11/13/2003 10:01:03 AM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: wardaddy
Ping
2 posted on 11/13/2003 10:02:09 AM PST by Mr. Mojo
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To: Mr. Mojo
Most women in the military are not pushing to be allowed in combat. And "feminists want women in combat" is as much as myth as the "Israeli women in combat" is a myth.

Most women and most feminists do not advocate for women in combat. That is a myth.
3 posted on 11/13/2003 10:11:16 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
If the feminists aren't pushing for it, then who is? It isn't us former military women, nor the active military women and certainly not the men. Soooooo?
4 posted on 11/13/2003 10:14:44 AM PST by Truelove (qui tacet consentit)
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To: Mr. Mojo
A far better book to read, to truly grasp what women have endured, is _Yashka_.
Yashka was a young Russian peasant woman who, when WWI began, yearned to fight the Germans. She acquired special dispensation from the tsar to do so and became a
soldier on the front lines. Her autobiography is a clear and incisive look at the
privations women can endure and how women can become infantry soldiers. She avoided
the biweekly visit to the communal shower behind the front lines until such time as
the lice and other vermin became unbearable on her body. She could not obtain shower
time on her own because the shower was booked by unit. She eventually gathered her
nerve and showered with the men. By this time, the men were so impressed with her
soldiering ability, that they simply ignored her. When new men arrived in the unit
and found Yashka in the soldier, the older veterans warned the others to leave her
alone. She was wounded numerous times and dragged countless men from the no-man's
zone between the lines. When the February revolution began and men began fleeing the
front, Yashka, who by now was famous, was asked by Kerensky for her advice in keeping
men in the war. She suggested forming a Women's Battalion of Death "to shame the men
into fighting." Three such battalions were formed, primarily of aristocratic women,
whom Yashka then trained. She became the commander of one battalion and led it to
the front lines where it engaged in battle
5 posted on 11/13/2003 10:15:13 AM PST by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: All
if your son is a pow it is a tradegy,
if your daughter is a pow it is a nightmare.
6 posted on 11/13/2003 10:16:00 AM PST by genghis
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To: genghis
How very and sadly true!
7 posted on 11/13/2003 10:18:18 AM PST by meema
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To: RussianConservative
Speaking of showers:
My artillery unit in Germany (Lance missiles) was one of the few that allowed women in the batteries. On one exercise, we had to give up all of our airmobile assets (6 helicopter sorties) that were slated for a nuclear missile airmobile (very cool stuff) so that they could chopper the females back to base for showers. It seems they tend to get ripe very quickly in the field. Anyway, the airmobile exercise that our crews had trained for 4 MONTHS for had to be cancelled because of "female hygiene issues".

On another exercise, EVERY FEMALE IN THE BATTALION STAFF (four females) was pregnant and had to leave the exercise early. You want to talk about combat effectiveness? How reassuring is it to have every female walking around, in "maternity BDUs" (yes, they have combat uniforms for pregnant women) with their gear unbuckled because they were 8 MONTHS PREGNANT? None of those women would have been able to deploy during wartime, and their jobs would have had to be filled with a man now doing TWO JOBS.

We have many fine female soldiers in the military, but combat arms and combat support should not be among them.
8 posted on 11/13/2003 10:31:45 AM PST by SJSAMPLE
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To: Lorianne
Most women and most feminists do not advocate for women in combat. That is a myth.

They never said that MOST women wanted it. As usual it was a tiny but loud minority trying to advance their personal agenda. And like it says it was mainly by women who will never have to be in combat. Hell, for that matter, the ones screaming for it wouldn't even join the military.

9 posted on 11/13/2003 10:34:13 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: Mr. Mojo
I agree. Women in combat except in the most dire situations like in the USSR during WWII where they fielded a few women fighters and pilots is pure koolaid in my view.
10 posted on 11/13/2003 10:36:22 AM PST by wardaddy (we must crush our enemies and make them fear us and sap their will to fight....all 2 billion of them)
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To: dennisw; Cachelot; Yehuda; Nix 2; veronica; Catspaw; knighthawk; Alouette; Optimist; weikel; ...
If you'd like to be on or off this middle east/political ping list, please FR mail me.
11 posted on 11/13/2003 10:36:23 AM PST by SJackson
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To: Blood of Tyrants
When they say "feminists" it implies all feminists advocate for women in combat. This is simply not true.
12 posted on 11/13/2003 10:43:17 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Lorianne
No, it is the LIBERAL feminists (the majority of which are men-hating lesbians) who are calling for it.
13 posted on 11/13/2003 10:45:20 AM PST by Blood of Tyrants (Even if the government took all your earnings, you wouldn’t be, in its eyes, a slave.)
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To: All
Russia had some good female snipers in WWII.
14 posted on 11/13/2003 10:46:29 AM PST by FNG
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To: Mr. Mojo
I lived in Israel for a time and had several female friends who were serving in the military or had just finished their service. None of them advocated for women in combat, however all were adamant that women be trained and ready for combat should they be needed. Female Israeli soldiers are trained in combat and IMO are ready for it if they should have to be called up. (I wouldn't want to face any of the women I met .. in a combat situation).

In Israel more than anywhere else they are aware that everyone is literally on the front lines, even children and grandmothers. So they have a completely different perspective on defense of their country. They want to cover their bases and have as many young people prepared to defend it as possible ... just in case.
15 posted on 11/13/2003 10:51:03 AM PST by Lorianne
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To: Mr. Mojo
All Israeli teens must go through a program called GADNA, which is kind of a teen military training. I did it for two weeks. I even have a picture of myself (somewhere) running with a rifle when I was 15!
16 posted on 11/13/2003 10:54:42 AM PST by Hildy
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To: Mr. Mojo
Olga Kokovtseva was a captain with the 6th regiment of the Ural Cossacks who fought in Serbia. She was wounded in two battles and received the St. George Cross

A Russian womens batallion led by the much decorated Maria Botchkareva (Yashka), was dubbed the "Battalion of Death", Volkensteli and Ludmilla Kornilov served in its ranks. (see also Women's Battalion of Death Bibliography and Russian Command Photos) Princess Eugenie Shakhovskaya was the first woman to become a military pilot when she flew reconnaissance missions for the Russian Czar in 1914. (see Women Military Pilots)

Lieutenant Marie Baktscharow, led the first Russian women's battalion (of 250 women) in 1917.

Princess Sophie Alexandrovna Dolgorunaya, who had obtained her pilot's license in 1914, volunteered for the Air Service in 1917 and flew missions with the 26th Corps Air Squadron.

The Indian National Army (INA) had an all women regiment called the Rani of Jhansi Regiment during WW2. They were involved in active combat in Burma. (info provided by Tina R. Fox)

Constance Markievicz, an Irish nationalist, founded a paramilitary order called the Fianna Eireann in 1909. She was a captain in the Easter Uprising of 1916

During the Greek Civil War (1943-1947) at least 20% of all combat troops were women.

Elaine Mordeaux, a French Resistance commander in WW2, led a unit of two hundred guerrillas, about a third of them were women.

Tito's Resistance Army in Yugoslavia included more than 100,000 women (partizanka) At least 2,000 women were promoted to officer ranks The first all woman partisan unit in Yugoslavia was formed in the Serbian village of Lika on August 25, 1942, 700 women volunteered for the 110 positions available.

Liza Ivanova organized and led a group of 68 men and women guerillas in Russia, 1941

70% of the 800,000 Russian women who served in the Soviet army in WW2 fought at the front. One hundred thousand of them were decorated for defending their country.

Soviet Union had 1,000 women aviators were trained as fighter and military transport pilots, 30 of them were awarded the Gold Star of a Hero of the Soviet Union for their heroism in combat.

Lance Corporal Maria Ivanova Morozova a sniper with the Soviet 62nd Rifle Battalion, won 11 combat decorations.

Maria Baide, a scout in the Crimea was awarded Russia's highest honor, Hero of the Soviet Union.

Alexandra Beikov and her husband Ivan bought their own tank so they could go into WW2 together. She was awarded the order of the Patriotic War.

Gertrud Scholz-Klink, a Nazi leader, formed battalions of women to carry on the final defense of Germany in the closing months of the war.

Bangladeshi women fought against a Pakistani invasion around 1970.

Gertrudis Bocanegra raised an army of women and led them in battle in 1810 during the Mexican War of Independence

It is estimated that 750 women disguised themselves as men and fought in the American Civil War. Mary Owens served for eighteen months using the name John Evans. Satronia Smith Hunt enlisted in an Iowa regiment with her first husband. Mary Stevens Jenkins enlisted in a Pennsylvania regiment and remained in the army for two years. John Williams of the Seventeenth Missouri Infantry was discharged from the army on the grounds: "proved to be a woman." Mrs. S. M. Blaylock spent two weeks with the Twenty-sixth North Carolina Infantry, Company F before being discovered. Mary Scaberry, alias Charles Freeman served in the Fifty-second Ohio Infantry and was discharged from Union service after her gender was discovered while she was being treated in hospital for a fever. A teamster and a private in a Union cavalry regiment got drunk and fell into a river. The soldiers who rescued the pair found out that they were women in the process of resuscitating them. Mary Galloway was wounded in the chest during the Battle of Antietam A woman wearing the uniform of a Confederate private was found dead on the Gettysburg battlefield on July 17, 1863 Frances Hook, alias Frank Miller was discovered after she was wounded and captured by the Confederates. Madame Collier and Florina Budwin were also prisonners of war. ( source Women Soldiers of the Civil War - info provided by Leslie Miller)

Alrude, Countess of Bertinoro in Italy led her army and broke a siege at Aucona in 1172, she also took part in several battles when she returned to her own castle.

A Papal Bull of 1189 prohibited women from joining the Third Crusade, but was widely ignored. Queens Eleanor of Aquitaine, Eleanor of Castile, Marguerite de Provence, Florine of Denmark and Berengaria of Navarre are known to have gone on Crusade. Guilbert de Nogent wrote a history of the Crusades and mentioned "a troop of Amazons" who accompanied Emperor Conrad to Syria as well as women Crusaders in the army of William, Count of Poitiers

Duchess Gaita of Lombardy (also known as Sichelgaita Princess of Lombardy or Sykelgaita), who died in 1090, was married to a Norman mercenary. She was a soldier and rode into battle with her husband wearing full armour. Princess Anna Comnena of Constantinople called Gaita a "formidable sight." (for further info contact Moogie - moogie@nondescript.net)

Matilda, Countess of Tuscany (also known as Matilda of Canossa) was born in Northern Italy in 1046. She learned weapons skills as a child. She first went into battle at her mother's side in 1061 defending the interests of Pope Alexander II. When her stepfather, Duke Godfrey, died in 1069 Matilda began to command armies. She is described as having led her troops personally and wielded her late father's sword. She spent some thirty years at war in the service of Pope Gregory VIII and then Pope Urban against the German Emperor Henry IV. She married twice, but had no children. She retired to a Benedictine monastery, but in 1114 when there was an uprising in the nearby city of Mantua she threatenned to lead an army against the townsfolk. She died in 1115. (source "Battle Cries and Lullabies" - Linda Grant de Pauw - University of Oklahoma Press - 0-8061-3288-4)

Procopius' history of the Gothic War of 535-552AD includes the story of an English princess, referred to as "the Island Girl", who led an invasion of part of Jutland and captured the young king, Radigis, who had jilted her after their betrothal

Thyra, Queen of Denmark, ruled in her husband's absence. She led her army against the Germans who invaded Sleswick and Jutland. Around 890 AD she built the Danneverke, a great wall which was Denmark's major defence for centuries.

Olga (Saint), widow of Igor of Russia, raised an army which attacked Drevelian strongholds and ended the revolt in which her husband died, in 945AD

Aethelflaed, eldest daughter of Alfred the Great of England, was known as the Lady of Mercia. She led troops against the Vikings during her father's reign and was responsible for the construction of many fortifications. Her military achievements helped her brother Edward the Elder in his Kingship. She died 918 in AD.

At the battle of Bravellir between King Harald War-tooth and his nephew Ring, three women, Hethna, Visna and Vebiorg led companies on the Danish side. (source "Women in the Viking Age" - Judith Jesch - Boydell Press - 0 85115 278 3)

On the walls of Hittite fortresses dating to 1300 BC paintings of woman warriors carrying axes and swords

Zabibi and her successor Samsi reigned as Arabian warrior queens from approximately 740 to 720 BC. Both commanded armies containing large numbers of women.

17 posted on 11/13/2003 10:55:43 AM PST by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: SJSAMPLE
That sound like leadership issue...also hygenie is over rated as need...women can go longer...use sanitary wipe for genital.
18 posted on 11/13/2003 10:57:24 AM PST by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: genghis
In Islamic war, son POW as likely raped as daughter...probably more so...and good chance castrated.
19 posted on 11/13/2003 10:58:01 AM PST by RussianConservative (Hristos: the Light of the World)
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To: Mr. Mojo
I think the only folks wanting women in combat do so looking for "martyrs" like Jessica Lynch to use against the war and against the Administration that's waging the war.

They would cynically hope for high-profile deaths and injuries among the women to use in mustering public sentiment against the war and against the military in general.

Certainly, nobody can argue that any but a very few women are physically qualified to wage war as an infantry soldier must: carrying all his equipment, food, water, and arms with him, and if necessary defeating the enemy hand-to-hand.
There IS no "G.I. Jane."
20 posted on 11/13/2003 11:06:21 AM PST by Redbob
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