Lt. Col. Allen B. West

Washington Times ^ | November 6, 2003 | Stanley SrA. USAF 91-95

[Pukin Dog]

Am I supposed to be upset by that?

Look, differing opinions causing such a statement is more a relection on you than me, but as such, you are intitled to yours as I am mine.

Col. West is an Officer in the US Armed Forces, as had only one duty. If that duty conflicted with his opinion, he had the resposibility to report that conflict prior to his actions.

Your opinion of me is not relevant to the facts at hand. I'm sure you wont be the first to hold such a view.

[Calpernia]

>>>Am I supposed to be upset by that?

It made me sad.

[Pukin Dog]

Officers in the Armed Services of the US have a higher duty to uphold than popular opinion or sentiment. If it saddens you that I would expect a fellow Officer to follow the UCMJ, then what does that say? Not only did West break the law, he compounded it by making his situation public. That tells me that he committed two failures of leadership. I am stunned at how many Freepers are willing to support breaking the law, if the reason is good enough for some. What kind of country would we have everyone else held that view? I dont want to live in that kind of country. Laws matter.

[Old Student]

If I understand correctly, Col. West did, in fact, report his actions. I do not know, but only suspect, that he punished his troops in order to avoid further, higher-level punishment. I'm afraid I've got to side with Flurry against you and Poohbah. I will give you this, though: you explain what your problem with Col. West is, and why you have it, rather than calling names, as Poohbah did. While I disagree with you, I respect your opinion.

[Poohbah]

Flurry threw the first punch, and now you're saying I'm in the wrong. Got it. This whole affair is a real education.

[alpowolf]

Very well said...wish I could have done as well.

[alpowolf]

I am stunned at how many Freepers are willing to support breaking the law, if the reason is good enough for some. What kind of country would we have everyone else held that view? I dont want to live in that kind of country. Laws matter

I'm stunned by that, and also by the "win no matter what" that many have expounded. That kind of approach may end up turning more and more people against us; we must remember that our ultimate goal is to establish a stable democracy, not to lay waste to the countryside.

[Neets]

Well some people fool some of the people some of the time.

[Pukin Dog]

Poohbah is good people. Like me, he has a temper. The comparison drawn against him was out of line. I think we should all just move on. All opinions should be welcome, even if we sometimes lose our bearing.

[colorado tanker]

PK, from what I've seen so far, I don't see any criminal conduct. This prisoner was an unlawful combatant, a terrorist dressed in an Iraqi police uniform. As such he does not get POW status. So there is not a violation of the Geneva Convention.

I don't think a criminal assault occurred since LTC West had no intention of harming the guy, he was bluffing.

It seems to me that what LTC West did was violate an order and Army doctrine. He was apparently willing to do that to stop a planned ambush. He made a full report, made no effort to conceal his actions, and seems willing to face the consequences of his actions.

For those actions, I would expect LTC West to be relieved of command and his career effectively terminated. The Army's effort to throw him in Leavenworth is an abuse of prosecutorial discretion IMHO. Telling LTC West that he could avoid prosecution if he gave up the pension he worked 19.9 years for (and his wife I'm sure has no little interest in) was just plain chicken shiite.

[Pukin Dog]

Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ)

ART. 128. ASSAULT

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated, is guilty of assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

(b) Any person subject to this chapter who--

(1) commits an assault with a dangerous weapon or other means or force likely to produce death or grievous bodily harm; or

(2) commits an assault and intentionally inflicts grievous bodily harm with or without a weapon;

is guilty of aggravated assault and shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.

I anticipated this argument and did my homework before I decided that West was wrong. Intent may play a role in a civilian jurisdiction, but in the UCMJ, it clearly does not.

[colorado tanker]

attempts or offers with unlawful force or violence to do bodily harm to another person, whether or not the attempt or offer is consummated

LTC West made no such attempt. He had no intent to attempt any bodily harm. He will testify he fired into the disposal barrel and would not have done anything else had the bluff failed. If the standard of reasonable liklihood to win a conviction beyond a reasonable doubt were used, the usual standard to decide whether to bring charges, this charge should not have been brought.

[Pukin Dog]

What about the word 'offers' dont you get? He made a threat. You cannot so much as imply a threat. Even if he never spoke. Also, you are forgetting that the standard of proof is not the same as in a civilian court.

It will go something like this:

"Col. West, did you discharge your sidearm in the presense of a prisoner?"

"Yes"

At that moment, he is guilty. Not even Johnnie Cochran could not save him from a finding of guilt. His hopes rest with the penalty phase, because he broke the code.

[Ispy4u]

Man! I was busy today, but you two carried the fight extremely well.

I hope I have time to get in on this tomorrow.

[colorado tanker]

I believe you will find that the type of aggravated assault the government has charged does require proof of specific intent and an attempt to inflict physical injury. The government has not charged simple "offer" type assault. The government has overcharged LTC West, which I realize is a common prosecution tactic to force plea bargains, but IMHO should not be used by military prosecutors.

Plus, have you considered the statement made by the offer made not to prosecute at all if LTC West resigned short of his 20 years - not exactly confidence in a air tight case.

[Pukin Dog]

Plus, have you considered the statement made by the offer made not to prosecute at all if LTC West resigned short of his 20 years - not exactly confidence in a air tight case.

I do not agree with respect to West being overcharged.

You should not listen to TV commentators with respect to offering not to charge West. This is common practice, to avoid taxing the limited resources of JAG staff, and to spare the Army from the publicity this case would generate. Col. West is responsible for making this a public matter. It has no bearing on whether or not they felt they could prove their case. I'll remind you again, that you should not compare JAG operations to civilian courts. You will find yourself to be wrong with respect to intent. But we will see soon enough.

[Dubya]

Don't let the libs get you down.

[Old Student]

Flurry didn't throw a punch, you just reacted as if he did. I had to go back and reread his post several times to even begin to understand why you got upset. Once I got it, I sort of understood; I served for several years with Clinton as CINC and the bastrich signed my retirement certificate. Now you seem to be trying to jump salty with me, too. Take a chill pill, and think it over. I'll be back again tomorrow evening, probably, and maybe we can talk it over. Do not forget, in text it is really hard to read the sort of emotional tone-of-voice and body-language clues you get in face-to-face speech. I'll even admit I could be wrong, and he meant it exactly as you took it. You should admit you definitely upped the ante with your language, plain-text and masked, if only to yourself. Catch you tomorrow, I hope. In the meantime, try to keep it civil.

[Conspiracy Guy]

I said I would not want to serve by your side or Bill Clinton's side. If I had thrown a punch it would be clear and open.

You seem to be glowing in the hope that West suffer for his actions. I can not believe that this obsession is your love of the UCMJ.

Now I will throw a clear punch. You are a little jerk. How's that?

[Conspiracy Guy]

I'm enjoying the exchange of ideas with people who want to see West drug through the mud. They have convicted him and therefore there is no need for a court marshall. Let's just go ahead and punish him.

Poohbah and puking dog can go ahead and sentence him now. Then their bloodlust will be satisfied. Ispy4u and r9etb can carry out the sentence.

I will pray that the truth comes out and the chips fall as they may. I hope West suffers no further punishment.